CLUSTER AND VACUUM BOMBS AND THE KREMLIN MAY HAVE REQUESTED MILITARY EQUIPMENT FROM CHINA.

JOINING US ARE JEFF ABRAMSON A SENIOR FELLOW FOR ARMS CONTROL AND TRANSFERS FOR THE NATIONAL ORGANIZATION PROMOTING ARMS CONTROL.

AND ROBERT LATIFT, A RETIRED U.S.

AIR FORCE MAJOR GENERAL WHO NOW SERVES ON THE SCIENCE AND SECURITY BOARD OF THE CHICAGO BASED BULLETIN OF THE ATOMIC SCIENTISTS.

WELCOME BOTH OF YOU TO "CHICAGO TONIGHT."

ROBERT LATIFT WE'VE SEEN THE HORRIFYING IMAGES OF MATERNITY HOSPITALS BEING BOMBED AND WHAT ARE THE WEAPONS USED ON BOTH SIDES?

>> BOTH SIDES ARE USING THE CLASSIC WEAPONS, TANKS AND RIFLES AND BOMBS AND MISSILES.

BUT WE'VE HEARD REPORTS AND SEEN FILMS WHAT YOU CALLED THE VACUUM BOMB AND CLUSTER MUNITIONS WHICH DISPENSE SMALL BOMB LETS THAT GO OFF OVER A LARGE AREA.

THEY ARE CONSIDERED TO BE HEINOUS WEAPONS.

>> AND JEFF ABRAMSON TELL US MORE ABOUT THE GENERAL BROUGHT UP THE CLUSTER MUSICIANS AND VACUUM BOMBS.

TELL US MORE ABOUT HOW DANGEROUS THEY ARE?

>> WARFARE IS HORRIBLE BUT WHAT WE'VE COME TO DO IS NARROW IT DOWN TO CERTAIN WEAPONS THAT WE GENERALLY AGREE WITH PARTICULARLY AWFUL.

CLUSTER MUNITIONS, ARE LITTLE BOMBS INSIDE BIG BOMBS AND THEY TEND NOT TO EXPLODE IMMEDIATELY BUT TO LEAVE AROUND TOY LIKE MUNITIONS THAT KIDS AND OTHERS PICK UP LATER.

BECAUSE OF SUCH A WEAPON THAT IS USUALLY HARMING CIVILIANS, IT IS A ONE THAT 110 COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD AGREED TO A TREATY THAT BANS THE WEAPONS.

YOU LOOK AT WEAPONS BANNED WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT WAR AS A SIGN OF HOW HORRIBLE THAT IS.

THERMO BARRICK BOMBS ARE NOT BANNED IN THE SAME WAY BUT THE PAST?

>> THE THERMO BARRICK VACUUM BOMB WAS USED TO GREAT EFFECT IN AFGHANISTAN.

AND WHEN THEY WERE HUNTING DOWN THE TALIBAN AND OTHERS IN THE CAVES.

THAT IS A PERFECT USE FOR THEM.

IT IS A NON-POPULATED AREA BUT THE SO-CALLED MIXTURE WILL BE DISPERSED AND GO INSIDE AND EXPLODE.

IT DOES WHAT IT NEEDS TO DO BUT AFGHANISTAN WAS THE LATEST USE OF THEM.

>> USED MORE FOR THAT NOT URBAN AREAS WHERE THEY CAN BE MORE DEADLY AND TARGET CIVILIANS.

JEFF ABRAMSON THE U.S.

HAS NOT SIGNED THE TREATY BANNING THESE WEAPONS.

CAN YOU EXPLAIN THAT?

>> THE UNITED STATES STILL ARGUES THAT THERE IS A NEED FOR CLUSTER MUNITIONS.

THEY WILL USE THEM MORE AGAINST TANK MOVEMENTS OR THOSE TYPES OF ARMORED MOVEMENTS.

BUT IT IS AN AERIAL DENIAL TYPE WEAPON.

THE UNITED STATES IS NOT USE TO DO IN 20 YEARS EXCEPT MAYBE IN A LIMITED CAPACITY IN YEMEN BUT THE UNITED STATES MAINTAINS IT NEEDS TO USE CERTAIN WEAPONS IT CONDEMNS OTHER COUNTRIES FOR USING.

THIS IS SOMETHING I'VE CALL THE UNITED STATES TO GET ONBOARD THAT TREATY AND THE MINE BAN TREATY.

>> VERY RECENTLY THE U.S.

AMBASSADOR TO THE U.N.

LINDA GREENFIELD APPEARED BEFORE THE U.N.

SOUNDING THE ALARM ABOUT RUSSIA POSSIBLY USING CHEMICAL WEAPONS.

TAKE A LOOK.

>> WE HAVE SERIOUS CONCERNS THAT RUSSIA MAY BE PLANNING TO USE CHEMICAL OR BIOLOGICAL AGENTS AGAINST THE UKRAINIAN PEOPLE.

RUSSIA COULD USE CHEMICAL OR BIOLOGICAL AGENTS FOR ASSASSINATIONS AS PART OF A STAGED OR FALSIFIED INCIDENT OR TO SUPPORT MILITARY OPERATIONS.

>> GENERAL, DO YOU SHARE THE AMBASSADOR'S CONCERNS THAT THE USE OF THESE WEAPONS FOR ASSASSINATIONS COULD BE IMMINENT?

>> ONLY PARTIALLY.

I'M SURE THE AMBASSADOR HAS ACCESS TO INTELLIGENCE WHICH OBVIOUSLY I DON'T HAVE.

BUT I KIND OF AGREE THAT CHEMICALS PERHAPS, BIOLOGICAL WEAPONS, I WOULD HAVE TO DOUBT THAT.

THOSE ONCE RELEASED ARE NOT EASILY CONTROLLED.

CHEMICALS MORE SO.

AND IN THE PAST, THE RUSSIANS HAVE NOT SHOWN HESITATION TO USE CHEMICALS AGAINST INDIVIDUALS.

IT'S POSSIBLE.

NOT PROBABLE.

>> JEFF ABRAMSON WHAT ABOUT CONCERNS OVER THE USE OF NUCLEAR WEAPONS?

THERE IS A CAMP OF FOLKS THAT SAY IT IS A BLUFF.

OTHER CAMP SAY YOU CANNOT BE TOO PREPARED OR CAUTIOUS WHEN DEALING WITH NUCLEAR POWERS.

>> I THINK A LOT OF THIS IS TRYING TO GET INTO THE MIND OF VLADIMIR PUTIN AND A LOT OF US ARE FAILING TO DO SO.

I DON'T THINK YOU WOULD RULE IT OUT COMPLETELY.

I THINK THE SITUATION IS TRYING TO BE CONTROLLED IN A WAY THAT WE DON'T GET TO THAT ESCALATION.

THE SCENARIO WHERE YOU MIGHT SEE A NUCLEAR EXCHANGE IF YOU STARTED TO SEE MILITARY CONFLICT BETWEEN U.S.

OR NATO FORCES AND RUSSIA THAT RATCHETS UP TO A NUCLEAR EXCHANGE.

I'M HOPEFUL THAT THE PUTIN DOES NOT WANT TO MOVE DOWN THAT PATH.

IT'S ANOTHER SIGN THAT NUCLEAR WEAPONS ARE NOT MAKING THE WORLD SAFER THEY ARE USED IN THIS CASE TO ENABLE THE CONFLICT.

BUT WE'RE HOPING THAT THAT PATH IS NOT TAKEN.

IT DOES SEEM THAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IS BEING CAUTIOUS TO NOT RATCHET UP NUCLEAR ALERTS AND THERE IS A WAY TO GET IN TOUCH WITH RUSSIA DIRECTLY SO ANY MISUNDERSTANDING IS TAKEN INTO HEART.

BUT ANYTIME YOU START TALKING NUCLEAR THIS IS RATCHETING UP THE CONCERNS.

>> AND GENERAL, AS WE MENTIONED THE REPORTS THAT THE U.S.

OFFICIALS ARE CONCERNED ABOUT CHINA SIFTING RUSSIA.

-- AKIFTING RUSSIA WITH WEAPONS COULD THE ALLIANCES ESCALATE INTO A GLOBAL CONFLICT WITH NUCLEAR POWERS AT PLAY HERE?

>> I DON'T THINK SO.

I THINK THE WORRY WITH CHINA AT LEAST MOST CURRENT WORRY HAS BEEN THEY MIGHT BE PROVIDING WEAPONS.

WE DON'T KNOW WHETHER THEY ARE DEFENSIVE OR OFFENSIVE WEAPONS OR AID FOR THAT MATTER.

AND I THINK IT'S HIGHLY UNLIKELY THAT WHATEVER PROCEED TO HAVING RUSSIANS OR CHINESE