♪♪ -I served during a time when the phrase, "Don't ask, don't tell," was both a policy and a punch line.

While that policy was repealed, its legacy reverberates today.

-I remember at one point I just laid there crying because I was not happy, and I just felt this sense of calmness come over me, and I just yelled out, "I'm gay," and I...

...I felt this sense of calmness that it was okay for me to be who I am.

-I don't understand how we can continue to put our young men and women into this position where they have to lie about their integrity in order to serve their nation.

And I saw him say that on C-SPAN, and I cried because it was the first time that a senior military officer who was still serving in uniform said that my service was as good as anybody else's service.

-And though service members may now serve openly as their authentic selves, some fear future legislation or executive orders may negatively impact their service.

-I had very few allies in my corner.

I had a commander that was ardently against it.

He looked for ways of getting me kicked out.

So I went from being, you know, "Hey, you're a great CF pilot, great instructor, you know, you're doing a great job," to I was not really welcome there.

-I'm Stacy Pearsall, retired Air Force staff sergeant.

And today I'm sitting down with James Bond, Tammy Smith, and Jason Vero, three veterans who know what it means to serve with pride.

This is "After Action."

-♪ There will be light ♪ ♪ There is a road ♪ ♪ Marching on ♪ ♪ Coming home ♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ - [Presenter] Major funding for "After Action" is provided by the ETV Endowment of South Carolina.

With the generosity of individuals, corporations, and foundations, the Endowment is proud to sponsor "After Action".

-Tammy, James, and Jason, welcome to LowCountry Acres, and thanks for coming to be on the show.

I'm so thankful to have you here.

I appreciate it.

I love to hear everyone's military backstory and kind of how you chose the military, how you came about it, what branch you were in, and what you did.

So we're going to start over here with you, Tammy.

-I came into the Army to get out of my small town.

I wanted to leave Oakland, Oregon.

It was in the early '80s.

I was reading my Future Farmers of America magazine.

Little coupon in there said, "No money for college?

Let the Army show you how.

Send for free information."

That free information was an ROTC scholarship application.

And so that was my way out.

And I thought that I'd, you know, do my commitment and that I would then return someplace else and have a college degree, but 35 years later, I found out that I really liked being in the Army and I really liked being around the people who also found themselves in the Army.

-What did you get your degree in?

Where did you go to school?

-I went to the University of Oregon, and I ended up with a history degree.

-Okay.

-And... -And does that go with the military?

-Well, you know, you -- certainly, you have to have a good grasp of history.

But for me, it was like, what degree could I get and finish in four years so that I can keep my scholarship?

Because I wasn't that great of a student.

I came from this little town, didn't really have a college track, and I really wasn't prepared to go.

But I was determined to graduate, and I did.

-Unlike most of her peers, retired Army Major General Tammy Smith lived with her spouse as far off base as possible, paid for most military moves out of pocket, and kept her private life extremely private.

It was as much self-preservation as it was policy.

It was, "Don't ask, don't tell."

That all changed when she came out, in a big way.

So how about you, James?

-So I was born and raised in Madison, Wisconsin.

I was the oldest of six kids.

We were very poor.

I knew early in life that I wanted to be successful, and so I had to think about what it was that I needed to do in order to reach that goal.

I knew that it was gonna be important for me to have a good education, but because we didn't have -- we were poor, didn't have money, I decided that the military was probably the option that would be available for me to help me with my schooling.

So my first thought was, is I'd go in the Air Force.

So I went and saw the recruiter.

They told me that they had a delayed-entry program, so it would be another year or so before I could get in.

And I decided that that wasn't something for me.

I wanted to get in right away.

So I happened to walk right down the way for -- to see some other recruiters, and I saw the Marine Corps dress-blue uniform.

-Damn good uniform.

-And I saw that uniform and I thought, you know, I want to be one of them, one of the few, the proud, Marine.

So I enlisted in the Marine Corps and then was stationed in San Diego, California, at MCRD San Diego, and went to Okinawa, Japan, for a year, and then North Carolina, Camp Lejeune.

So it was a good time, good experience, four and a half years.

-Marine Corps veteran James Bond is the first openly gay secretary in the Department of Veteran Affairs' history.

In addition to caring for those already in the VA system, he's reaching out to those who served honorably but were dishonorably discharged because of their sexual orientation.

He believes it's never too late to do the right thing.

Jason?

-My story is pretty similar to James.

So I'm the oldest of seven, between my three parents, and I always wanted to join.

It was really more figuring out what that path was gonna look like.

I knew I wanted to fly, particularly helicopters.

So most people think, oh, you should join the Army.

But in the Army, you stop flying after you're a captain.

Then you basically become more of a staff person.

I was like, "No, I want to go fly."

And, well, one summer I happened to be browsing through an encyclopedia, and I discovered that service academies existed.

And that was it.

I ran out there and I showed my mom, was like, "Did you know about this?

They have service academies.

Like, I could go to college for free."

And she was like, "Yeah, they have one for the Air Force, too."

And it was like, it's all gonna work out.

So I went on their website and it was a whole checklist, which, a pilot loves a checklist.

So I just wrote everything down, and I went to the counselors and figured out how I needed to get through school to go to the academy.

And then from there, I would just continue to research how to become a pilot, and the academy is really the -- when I say "easier away," there's more opportunity through the academy.

So, went to the academy, graduated in 2011, and got picked up for pilot training.

Went to Columbus, Mississippi, for the first track.

After T-6es, they track you out to either bombers, fighters, tankers, heavy lift, or helicopters, if you want to really be different.

Then they kick you out and tell you go to Fort Rucker, which is on Fort Novosel, down in Alabama.

And the relationship with the Air Force is about like that the rest of the time.

Yeah, so I went down to Fort Rucker and finished pilot training and went out to Fairchild for first assignment.

-Air Force pilot Jason Faro always knew he wanted to be a rescue pilot.

He amassed over 1,500 hours and 350 instructor hours in the Huey, which garnered him multiple awards and decorations.

Despite his many achievements, he felt unfulfilled.

Something he couldn't explain was bothering him.

After years of soul searching, Jason decided to tell the truth to himself and to the world and came out as transgender.

He proudly serves openly as his authentic self.

What was your first assignment, Tammy?

-My first assignment was to the Republic of Panama.

-Oh, wow.

Okay.

-I was commissioned in 1986, and most of my peers were heading off as new lieutenants to Germany.

I just assumed that I was gonna go to Germany, and they hadn't gotten my assignment yet.

And I talked to the branch manager and said, "Just send me someplace hot."

And I got my orders in the mail, 'cause you wouldn't get them by e-mail now.

So my orders came in the mail, and I go, "Panama!

Panama?

I wonder where Panama is."

And I literally had to go to the globe and find out where Panama was.

But I tell you, it was such a great assignment for a young person, 23 years old, to be living out of the country, having a salary, because I was getting second lieutenant pay, and having the opportunity just to live in an apartment and interact with local people and eat downtown and that sort of thing.

We were a nation that wasn't at war at that time.

And so I'm here doing my overseas duty, but I'm also having this time of my life because I get to experience this culture.

And coming from Oakland, Oregon, and some of the other things, that was something that I never would have thought that I might have experienced.

-That's really lucky.

I filled out my dream sheet, and I said, "Please send me anywhere in the world," and they said, "Sure," and then they sent me to Nebraska, so right back home.

-Oh.

-Thanks, guys.

So much for a dream sheet.

-Yeah.

-And then Okinawa -- what was Okinawa like for you?

-It was a good experience.

I spent one year there.

I was in the 3rd Landing Support Battalion.

I was a supply clerk.

I had a great experience.

But I spent the majority of my time over there continuing my education.

So I was one of the very -- one of the few people in my battalion that was interested in continuing my education.

So my battalion commander said, "I'm gonna give you as much time as you need."

So I kind of was working more on my education while I was there, part-time Marine Corps, but it was a great experience and I'm glad I had a chance to go over there.

-You saw this pamphlet and it was the Army scholarship.

-Yeah.

-Was that, like, the moment that really was pivotal for you and the change of your life?

I know you've said to me before that it was the '80s and that's just... -Yeah.

-...that was the tone of the times.

-Yeah.

-So can you talk to me a little bit about making the decision to join the Army?

-It's only when I look back at it now, I realize Future Farmers of America magazine -- they were looking for young men to find that coupon.

They weren't actually expecting me, you know.

So first there's that, and it was about that time that I was having this self-discovery about myself that I was probably gay.

And I started college.

And, you know, once I figured out what my orientation was, I really didn't struggle with it.

It was kind of like, "Oh, now things make sense now."

-Right.

-But going into ROTC, I knew that people who identified as homosexual -- the term used at the time -- I knew that they were not allowed to be in the military.

So when I made that decision to accept the scholarship, I knew that this newfound acceptance of myself and awareness of who I was was going to have to be something that I kept a secret from the ROTC department and probably from just anybody who I knew in college.

-So, James, can you talk to me a little bit about your experience when you enlisted, where you were at in your life?

-Well, I struggled with my sexuality from age 14 until I was 30.

So, when I was in high school, I knew I was different from the rest of the guys in my class.

You know, they were attracted to women.

I wasn't.

And I knew that that was gonna be real difficult for me during those times.

This was in the early '80s and stuff.

And so I just decided that because of my religious beliefs at the time, that being a homosexual was a sin.

And so, for me, that was real difficult because my religion means a lot to me.

I'm Catholic.

And so I struggled a lot and decided that I would just have to suppress my feelings in order to get through life and to get through the military.

But then when I went in the military, my first duty station was MCRD San Diego.

And I got there and I found out there were so many Marines, Navy vets, that were gay.

A lot of gay and lesbian folks in the community.

And I thought, I can't believe this.

So I felt comfortable, but at the same time, I was very scared because I was in the Marine Corps and I didn't want the fact that I might be gay to impact on my being in the military, particularly being dishonorably discharged.

I was very fearful of that being a possibility.

And I thought about what it would do, not only to me, but the impact it would have on my family.

And I was not in any way, shape, or form prepared to embarrass my family by them finding out that I was gay.

So I just suppressed my feelings while I was in.

-James, you reminded me of the reason I came out to my mom.

-Mm-hmm.

-It was -- I had gone through ROTC and had hidden this from ROTC and also from my family.

-Yeah.

-And when I was commissioned, I went to my mom and I wanted to tell her.

I said, "Mom, I just need to tell you this.

You know that I identify as a lesbian, and I want you to know this because I don't want the way that you find out about me to be when I have to tell you that I got kicked out with dishonorable discharge."

-Right.

-And, you know, she told me it was just a phase, that I'd be different when I got out of college.

-[ Laughs ] Right.

-But it turned out to not be a phase.

-Yeah.

Jason, you came in after the repealing of "Don't ask, don't tell."

So, I mean, maybe for the benefit of the group, can you kind of describe to me the climate and the rules that dictated same-sex orientation at the time in the military, when you came in?

-So I actually -- so I joined the military in 2007.

In the academy, you still fall under the UCMJ.

So I was still subjected to the same rules.

And then when they did repeal it, that was right before I commissioned... -Right.

Okay.

-...which, in the academy, it was a mixed reception of that.

I also was -- remember how you were talking about, like, your religious viewpoint?

So I was also very religious and very deep in the closet, like, Narnia-level deep in the closet, I would say just seeing how people kind of reacted to just the LGB -- didn't include the "T," just the LGB -- I just kind of continued to hunker low and not really make any kind of waves.

-I was impacted by several policy changes.

When I first started ROTC, being a homosexual was dealt with by the military through the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

It was a criminal act, and so it would be handled that way, as judicial.

And that policy was in place the whole time I served, up until '93, '94 when the law, the compromise law that became known as "Don't ask, don't tell," came into place.

And what was different about that change is the previous policy said your mere existence, and if we perceive you to be a homosexual, that's enough that we can kick you out of the military.

"Don't ask, don't tell" was supposed to be based on more than just your perception, or somebody else's perception of who you were.

And the rule was that the Army's not gonna ask you, meaning they aren't gonna -- they're gonna take that thing off the enlisted form that said, "Have you ever engaged in homosexual activity?"

They're gonna take that off.

And so long as you never tell the Army, then you're allowed to serve.

And so for the first 25 years, I was under one of those policies until it was finally repealed in 2011.

-I want to add to that, too.

When I went in, during that time, HIV/AIDS was out there.

We had a couple of Marines in my unit that were positive for HIV.

And I got to tell you, the commanding officer and others in the leadership in the Marine Corps, they were on the watch for anyone else who might be gay in our unit.

-So if "Don't ask, don't tell" was repealed by the time you were commissioned, can you talk to me a little bit about your journey through your commission?

-There's, like, a lot of layers to my situation.

So, the LGB is sexual orientation, whereas a "T" is gender identity, right?

And gender identity then plays into sexual orientation.

So not only do you have to figure out who you are, and then you have to refigure out who you're attracted to and how to define that, because everyone loves labels.

So when I joined, nowhere -- like, was nowhere on the horizon that the "Don't ask, don't tell" was gonna be repealed, right?

So I, in my mind said, "Okay, I'll do my time in the military, be that one term or be that a full career, and then I'll figure it out from there."

It was always this point off in the future, a problem for future me.

I knew that I wanted to join and serve more than anything.

And a lot of the stuff that I wanted to do, the only opportunity I would get to do that is in the military.

So I basically made a decision -- which one matters to me more?

And serving did.

So I just did the best that I could with the decision that I had to make.

-Yeah, the trans population is really interesting because as some of these changes occur and I have my straight friends say, you know, "We never really even thought that much about people who were gay," and even though I was a member of the gay community, the trans community was invisible to me.

And so you all were certainly, like, deeper in the closet and off the mainstream thinking during these times.

-Yeah, I don't think I signed anything whenever I joined, because I actually remember -- I won't name who, but someone said, "Oh, well, you lied to the military when you joined because you didn't tell them that you were trans."

And it's like, well, I don't think that that was really -- 'cause it was under "Don't ask, don't tell."

So I don't think anyone ever really asked me specifically about being trans.

So I basically just stayed in the closet because it didn't seem like it was gonna be a possibility in the military.

When "Don't ask, don't tell" was repealed, a lot of trans folks were like, "Oh, wait, that doesn't include us?"

I didn't fall into that category because it explicitly said for your sexual orientation.

So I was like, okay, well, I knew it was going to come eventually.

It was only a matter of time.

What that would look like, who knows?

I had already plowed through, you know, pilot training.

And to me, it was like, let's just wait and see.

Let the situation develop, and then I'll make a decision when I need to.

-But in the meantime, there's got to be a lot of emotions... -Internal -- yeah.

-...surrounding that.

So living a person that you don't identify with has to be, you know -- the trial of that is probably excruciating, on top of the military experience.

So what I hear so much from each and every one of you is -- is fear.

-Mm-hmm.

-You felt compelled to serve for your own reasons, and then there's this fear of being discovered for who you are.

-Yeah.

-The military experience in itself is a trial and tribulation, right?

Getting through basic training, changing who you are, kind of stripping your individual identities and taking on what is "the military," right?

We all seek relationships and partnerships.

What was that like for you?

How did you fulfill that?

Oh, I think, Tammy, you specifically, for such a long time over such a span of time in the service, without being discovered.

-Yeah.

When I look back on it, it's that starting in the '80s, I just accepted this is the way -- this is the way life is, because in the '80s, if you identified as being a member of the -- well, the "L" community, in my case, it's that, you know, I wasn't welcome anywhere.

What, was I gonna be a cop?

Was I gonna be a school teacher?

Was I gonna be a nurse?

I mean, wherever I worked in the '80s, I most likely was going to have to hide that part of my life.

And so it wasn't a stretch for me to have to hide that to be a member of the military, and they paid for my college.

So as I moved through that, what I found is that while I was gay, my first identity was as a soldier, Because I really embraced.

And I came to just own the values of service and what it meant for my uniform to represent America wherever it is that I wore it.

And so it was just, like, trade-off.

It's like, well, this is what I'm going to need to do in order for the privilege to serve.

And that was fine.

But as time went on along those 25 years, it did get harder because so many things around me began changing.

There was greater understanding of the LGBT community.

There was things that were happening from a policy and a law standpoint.

Some states, like, beginning in 2004 started to allow things like gay marriage.

Corporations saw that they might be missing out on some really good talent, and if they provided partner benefits, maybe they could attract some different types of employees.

And so it wasn't hard for me until I started seeing things change in the rest of America.

And then I started having this feeling that these values that I thought my service had didn't seem to align as well anymore.

And I was having this little bit of dissonance, but it got harder as I saw things changing for other Americans, but even though I love serving, things were just the same for me as time went on.

-James, you made these adaptations in your life to give this persona of what you thought people wanted to see or needed to see... -Mm-hmm.

-...in order to feel part of that community, the military community.

But I'm curious -- how did you cope?

-My focus at that time was serving in the military and doing what I needed to do to accomplish my goal with respect to completing my education.

So that's where I put all of my energy -- into the Marine Corps and focusing on my education, because at that point I hadn't even accepted my sexuality.

And it would take me years after that to accept, went through a longer period of struggle and that kind of thing.

But, you know, I haven't shared this aspect of, but will share here -- I was celibate the entire time I was in the military, and -- and I was fine with it because I knew I couldn't be in any kind of sexual or any other type of relationship with a man.

I wasn't interested in being with a woman.

And so my choice was celibacy because I can't take the chance of getting in any kind of a relationship with a guy, again, because I was fearful of what it might do to my military career and how that might impact on my family.

-Yeah.

And I'd have to say if I go through that time -- and I had relationships during that time coming through -- is that I loved the Army more.

-Yeah.

-And so if there was ever a sacrifice that had to be made, I always made it in favor of the Army.

It was difficult to have a relationship.

And so perhaps that's why I put the Army first.

But being a soldier meant so much to me that there were many times when relationships dissolved, because, for me, I had to do my duty first and be a soldier first.

-So turning to you, Jason, can you talk to me through a little bit about what that was for you?

-I don't necessarily think folks figured that I was trans because it is a small group of people.

But definitely a lot of folks were asking me, like, "Well, who are you attracted to?

What are you attracted to?"

Because, again, I don't think that they really were putting all the pieces together.

There's not really a great analogy for comparing what it is to be trans with anything else that really kind of exists.

If you really want to get down to it, our society is so structured around, "Do you fall into this category or this category?

", in everything -- your name, the laws that you fall under, just the expectations.

So it was so frustrating all the time, you know.

And then get the added bonus of, at the time, how I was treated when I was in the military, because people had an opinion on, you know, females in the military.

So I got to have the double whammy of, like, "We're gonna treat you this way because it's how we see you."

And I'm doing my best not to make that look bad, but also, it's like, I don't -- I'm not even this that you're trying to tell me.

-As we continue to educate ourselves and hear more about personal experiences and talk openly about it, then we can better understand and put that fear aside of what we consider to be outside of the box.

Do you know what I mean?

-Yeah.

I think just rephrasing it.

So, I had a flight surgeon a few years ago.

Instead of saying "normal," what's "common."

So, this is more common, and then this is just less common.

And that really, I think, helps kind of shift people's perspective, because, yes, being cis is more common, but trans people exist.

It's just less common.

-As we watch the military evolve and begin to be more accepting of common and -- what do you say?

-- uncommon things, how are these environments changing for the better?

And what still needs to be adjusted?

-Education -- that's the biggest thing.

I've seen a lot of misconceptions.

I try to, instead of being automatically upset when someone -- or with someone whenever they misspeak or they have a really strong negative opinion, instead I just start asking them, "Well, why do you feel that way?

What specifically is it that bothers you?

Why does it bother you?"

I did a lot of research before I figured out what I was going to do.

And, I mean, I'm talking years.

I read through a lot.

You know, from the religious aspect, I'll be blunt -- I don't really care what people think.

I cared what my family thought.

But at the end of the day, I needed to do the right thing.

So, from the religious angle, you know, I would talk to my counselors -- well, how does God see gender?

And I pored through all of the scripture, I pored through books, I pored through medical studies.

Do you know what I found?

There's no right answer.

Nobody knows.

-Yeah.

-I was gonna ask, James, I mean, you are a faithful person, so how did you make that balance in finally coming out?

-Well, actually, what helped me was is I worked for the church, and during my travels from state to state as I worked with the church, I started meeting other individuals in leadership in the church that were gay.

And then there was one moment where I was just in my home and I was just praying out to God and asking a lot of "why"s -- you know, why am I not married?

You know, why haven't you done this?

Why haven't you done this?

I'm a good person.

I've accomplished this, that, so forth, and so on.

And yet, I wasn't fully happy with my life.

And I remember at one point I just laid there crying because I was not happy, and I just felt this sense of calmness come over me, and I just yelled out, "I'm gay," and I...

...I felt this sense of calmness that it was okay for me to be who I am.

And I'm so thankful that I was able to get to that point.

It took me 30 years, but it was the happiest moment of my life to accept who I was as a person and then to go on with my life.

-So, Tammy, you came out to your mom, and she said it was gonna be a phase.

-Yeah.

-And then you spent a lot of time putting Uncle Sam ahead of your personal life.

At some point, you ended up meeting your now wife.

Can you talk to me a little bit about what life was like on active duty and hiding a whole 'nother side of yourself?

-Yeah, I'll circle back to my mom first since you brought her up because, you know, she says it's just a phase, and then I go home, you know, 8 or 10 years later and visit, and she's telling me the story -- she was involved in local politics.

She was running for a political office, and she had gone to speak to a group of gay and lesbians at a local college, and she said -- says, "Yeah, I went and talked to them and I told them, I said, 'I really understand because I've got a daughter and she's a lesbian and she's in the Army.'"

And I'm like, "Mom, you can't tell people that."

-Oh, no!

[ Laughs ] -So, yeah.

-She didn't realize she was gonna out you in a bad way.

-Yeah, yeah, yeah.

-Okay.

-But, you know, I'm very grateful that, you know, she came around as accepting of that this is who I was.

But as I went through those 25 years -- and I'm sorry for your struggle -- my struggle was not with who I was.

My struggle was that I had to hide my life.

And even at the beginning of that hiding, again, I'm justifying it in some ways.

But one of the things that I think is common, and I've heard from your story, is the fact that we were able to find each other even as we were hiding.

And I have always referred to that as these were my off-the-grid friends.

-Right.

-And the off-the-grid folks were -- had nothing to do with your regular, everyday work life, but they were the ones that you felt comfortable with when you got together after work.

They were a trusted network.

In many cases, you had to be vetted a bit before somebody would let you in, meaning, the first time you got an address to go to a house party or something like that -- -Let me pause there for a second because there might be an infiltrator from, like, a military police or something like that.

Like, that's how -- they were out there.

It's not being paranoid, right?

-No, it's not being paranoid at all.

When I was under the policy that existed before "Don't ask, don't tell," that one that dealt with identity, it was the Criminal Investigation Division that would stake out gay bars.

It was not uncommon for somebody to infiltrate, to go to a gay bar and offer to buy you a drink, and then when you accepted the drink to say, "Okay, come with me.

We're going down back to post to the military police station.

We've got some questions for you."

And so there really was the organization trying to find you, and then they were going to kick you out because, again, we were an affront to good order and discipline by the way the policy was written.

But what was hard is that when you can't be visible yourself and let people see that you're a good soldier, you're a person who has values, you're a person that has self-worth and dignity, when you're not allowed to show your whole self, stereotypes are allowed to fill that void.

And so one of the hardest things about being under these policies, especially after I met Tracey, who you brought up, is that you weren't allowed to be your own good example of why you were not only not an affront to good order and discipline, you were the reason that the unit had good order and discipline and high morale, because of your particular leadership.

And we just weren't allowed to fill that void.

And so all of these horrible stereotypes were allowed to linger in conversations, because we literally -- the law prevented us from defending ourselves.

-I want to keep going with the conversation a bit and turn back to you, Jason.

So once you identified who you were, how did that work alongside your commitment to the military?

-So I have a very small support network.

So 2017 -- really rough year.

It was probably 2019 that -- so I finally got my diagnosis.

But I wanted to wait until I moved because I was at the end of my PCS cycle in Wyoming.

I did sit down with who was going to be my next commander -- so he hadn't PCSed yet -- and I basically said, "Hey, here's some things you're gonna need to know.

Not only am I going through a legal process, but I'm also going to transition once I get there.

So I'm gonna go by this name and I'm gonna start my medical transition officially once I get there because I figured it'd be easier."

Plus it's D.C. -- there's a lot more doctors and... -Yeah.

-...support there, right?

I had very few allies in my corner -- so my flight doc and my counselor, essentially.

My commander -- I gave him the update.

You know, I had two experiences.

So I've had a commander that was ardently against it.

As matter of fact, he looked for ways to get me kicked out simply based on that.

So I went from being, you know, "Hey, you're a great CF pilot, great instructor, you know, you're doing a great job," to literally finding ways to get me kicked out -- you know, paperwork, removed me from the arming list.

We had to do our mission's arm.

De-certed me from the mission.

And it was very clear that I was not really welcome there.

I ended up leaving that assignment early, and I got to my next assignment, and it was not a warm handoff from my previous base.

A couple months go by.

I'm just trying to, you know, get people to know who I am.

My group commander came up to me and she sat down, and she's like, "Look, I want to be up front with you.

I didn't hear great things with you coming here."

She's like, "But what I've seen the last couple of months don't really add up, so I just want to hear from you, you know, kind of what's your story."

So I walked her through everything in pretty finite detail.

And, you know, I told her, "Yep, this is where I've made mistakes.

This is where I've tried to repair them.

This is my plan, you know, to keep on this track, and the only thing I'm looking for is just for people to support me.

That's really it."

But it really all boils down to is your command team.

Are they supportive or are they not?

Because your experience in the military will directly correlate to that.

I've had phenomenal commanders and I've had commanders that, like, I personally feel like they've betrayed me.

You know, I've tried to move on 'cause time at least mends wounds.

-So, I'm curious -- coming back to you, Tammy, you talked about having this Army identity, Army first.

What happens when you fall in love?

What does that look like for you?

-It screws up everything, I'll tell you.

[ Laughter ] Yeah.

I mean, 2004 I met Tracey.

And I tell you, when you meet, like, your person, it's hard to keep that secret because you want to share with everybody about the person.

I mean, you found them.

You know that you love them.

And so Tracey and I knew that we wanted to be together.

And it was the first time that I think I loved something more than the Army.

And she had to come in the closet to be with me.

I mean, that was kind of how our relationship worked.

And so what that caused, though, is 2004 on, it just got harder and harder to be in the Army because I couldn't share the very best thing in my life.

And so it became just really hard.

I felt like, like I say, my values no longer aligned with the service values.

And it got so hard for me that -- at this point I was a colonel.

This would have been about 2009 or so.

I decided the only thing that I could do is retire.

And so I requested my retirement orders, and I was gonna go ahead and retire as a colonel.

And so I got the retirement orders.

And it wasn't but a couple of months later that Chairman Mullen, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs, got called down to the Senate Armed Services Committee to give his best military advice on whether or not the Congress should consider repealing "Don't ask, don't tell."

And he went down there and he said, you know, "My personal opinion is that I don't understand how we can continue to put our young men and women into this position where they have to lie about their integrity in order to serve their nation."

And I saw him say that on C-SPAN, and I cried because it was the first time that a senior military officer who was still serving in uniform said that my service was as good as anybody else's service.

And he gave me hope.

And so I went to my general and ask, and say, "You know, ma'am, I kind of made a mistake in my retirement.

You know, I kind of jumped the gun on it."

And it's really uncommon for you to get your retirement order rescinded once it's been published.

And I asked her if she would support me in trying to get it rescinded, and she said, "Of course I will.

You're a good officer.

I thought it was stupid that you were gonna retire.

Sure, I'll help you."

And I was able to get that order rescinded.

-What is it like being in a committed relationship on active duty, under the Don't ask, don't tell"?

Like, what are some of the stressors?

'Cause getting ready to deploy under the best of terms is phenomenally stressful.

And I know when I was the one going, I knew, like, my next of kin was my husband.

So heaven forbid something did happen to me, he would be notified.

You didn't necessarily have that luxury.

Can you talk to me a little bit about that?

-Yeah.

You know, we -- of course, we became at nation of war after 9/11 and the deployment started.

And for my own situation and for many of the members of my community, what our families had to do is that we, in many cases, had to have secret goodbyes.

When Tracey went with me to the Reagan National Airport, we just had to pretend like, you know, she was my friend seeing me off at the airport.

And, you know, it was excruciating because she was putting me on this airplane to go to Afghanistan, not knowing if I was going to come back.

And she certainly wasn't identified on any of my emergency-contact papers, because you would never put somebody like that on that because you didn't want to answer any questions about who that was.

So if something happened to me, the Army wasn't gonna notify her.

You know, during this time, I left her a "Just in case" letter in our lockbox where I gave her permission that if something were to happen to me, that she would out me, that if I couldn't be out in my life, that I would be out in my death.

And I gave her permission to do that.

But just the idea that we're serving our nation, and the person I love the most is not allowed to greet my transfer case as it returns back to the United States was what I lived through, our family lived through, and what countless families like mine went through in those years before the repeal.

-That could be the last possible moment you say goodbye, and you have to pretend that you're just their roommate.

-Right.

-That's such a disservice to you and your relationship.

But from one military service member to the other, thank you for making that sacrifice and that choice.

And that was a huge sacrifice.

-Very kind.

-Yeah.

-I was in Afghanistan in 2011 when "Don't ask, don't tell" was finally repealed.

And what that meant was that when I came home from Afghanistan, that Tracey and I could finally get married.

And so I thought that was how it was gonna be, that I was gonna finish up my career and I no longer had to worry about hiding.

And what happened, though, was a couple months after getting married to Tracey, is I got notified that I had been selected for promotion to brigadier general.

-Mm-hmm.

-And that's huge.

Now I was somebody who was legally married to another woman, and so I got lots of questions right away from my peer group, is like, "Well, what are you gonna do?

Are you gonna be out, or what are you guys gonna do?"

And the thought that we had was it was like a leadership decision, is that at this time there were no other generals or admirals who had come out.

And, I mean, we really were keeping track of all of this, so we knew if any general or admiral had come out, and they hadn't.

So the timing of it was possible that I might be the first openly gay general if I came out.

And so Tracey and I talked about it, and we made, like I say, a leader decision.

And I felt like, you know what?

If I can't be out as a brigadier general, what hope does a sergeant have or what hope does a lieutenant have if I'm worried about being out?

So, we decided that we would just be out as a couple and, you know, our coming out would be simply that she would participate in my promotion ceremony and that she would be the one who replaced one of the eagles with a star, and that my dad was gonna be the other one to do that, you know.

And it was that simple act is how I came out.

-When you started serving openly, did people start sharing more personal things with you, like being more vulnerable?

-All the time.

You know, from people in the community, but also, it impacted a great deal my peers.

So I had general officers now coming and telling me their stories about their children and, you know, just their own stories in there.

But it is -- there is something about being visible that gives other people permission to speak about it and to ask the questions.

And, to me, that's the light that covers up the stereotypes that are allowed to fester when we're not allowed to be visible.

And I suspect that was your two -- that you both had a similar experience.

-Oh, yeah, definitely.

-Yeah.

As soon as I started being -- I mean, I don't, like, tell everyone all the time, but if there's conversation or, you know, like, I had the article that came out, and, you know, in my unit, people would tell me all kinds of things.

If they were struggling, they were much more open, or if they had, you know, a child that was potentially trans or gay, people were way more open and vulnerable around me.

Or if they were just struggling with just life -- -Again, sometimes they're seeking help.

I mean, there were not a lot of resources at this time and, you know, they're looking for someone to validate that what's occurring to them is, it's just real and it matters.

And then, "What did you do?"

you know.

And so they're looking for this as a resource.

But, yeah, that was certainly my experience also.

-Yeah.

When my governor appointed me to serve as secretary of the Wisconsin Department of Veterans Affairs, I got a lot of calls and e-mails from folks wanting to have a conversation with me about being a gay person and then sharing stories about their children who came out to them as gay and their experiences.

But it wasn't until -- and these are -- many of the folks were individuals that I'd worked with for years.

But once it was out in the public, then all of a sudden they felt comfortable with coming to me and saying, "Hey, let me tell you about my story and about what we have gone through," and that kind of thing.

And it's been a great learning experience for all of us.

-And my experience was positive.

I mean, it was really positive, and I didn't expect it to be, that I really had a lot of trepidation that even though as a leader it was the right thing to do, I was still scared because I had 25 years of messaging from the same organization that was about to promote me, that I wasn't good enough to be there.

And so you internalize these messages.

And I had a lot of internalized homophobia.

And what my expectation was is as soon as the word got out, and it got out in a very public way because it was newsworthy, and I was in all the major newspapers and Time magazine and on the news and that sort of thing, so it was a very public outing.

That's how I came out to my high school friends.

They read it in the hometown paper.

[ Laughter ] But my experience -- it was not my homophobia.

My experience was positive.

And again, these people, they wanted to come and tell you that they always thought "Don't tell, don't tell" was stupid.

-So I think we also have to acknowledge those individuals who did not come out unscathed under the previous policies, and for those individuals who sadly were dishonorably discharged for their sexual orientation or identities, and what we're doing now to help.

Nothing will ever right that wrong.

I just want to say that up front.

But what are we doing now to bring them back into the fold?

Because with a dishonorable discharge, not only are you taking that pride from them of their service, but now you're also taking away their benefits as a veteran, which they earned, in my opinion.

-Well, it's been mixed a bit in that you go through periods of certain leaders being very supportive of making the adjustments to these discharge paperwork, to other times where it's a little bit more difficult.

But what the Department of Defense policy is on this is that if you were separated for homosexuality, and it is anything other than an honorable discharge, you will be upgraded to honorable, but you have to apply through the system that exists for whatever service discharged you.

I know when I was serving at the Pentagon, I was aware and I heard the briefings on how many of these packets came in.

And they're wanting to deal with them quickly and adjudicate them quickly because they knew that these service members had carried the shame with them from the whole time that they were given that piece of paper and exited off the military installation.

And I think there are many service members who just don't know where to start.

And there are organizations that will help them, such as the Modern Military Association of America is one of them.

American Veterans for Equal Rights will get you to the right places.

And there are others that will help you get started on that repeal process.

-I want to leave the floor open to you to give your final thoughts to anybody who's out there listening right now that may need to hear a message.

Please feel free to say it.

-I think the message that I would give is, I get asked this a lot, is that, how did you go through this experience and, one, not be angry and feel like you never violated your own personal integrity?

Because essentially by hiding, I was lying.

And I think that, for me, I was raised -- I knew I was a good person.

I knew what my values were.

I knew that I had integrity, and I was not ashamed of who I was, even though I needed to hide who I was in the situation I was at the time.

I've learned over 35 years your situation can change.

And so live your life with the dignity of the integrity to be true to yourself, even if you feel as if you are lying to the environment at the moment.

Just live your life with that dignity and have integrity to yourself.

-Yeah, stay true to yourself.

You know, it took me 30 years to accept my sexuality, and I was recently fortunate that one of my nephews came out.

He's 21 years of age.

And when he came out to me, I thought, wow.

This is just wonderful.

Because he came out a lot younger in his life than I did.

And he's now able to live his true self.

So staying true to yourself, who you are, and accepting yourself for who you are early is the message I'd like to leave.

-Okay, so I guess I've got different audiences then I would have a response to.

If you're a leader and you're in the military, you're a leader of all people that are under you.

You don't get to pick and choose, right?

So if you're not comfortable leading an LGBT person or somebody who is a different race or a different religion, you're in the wrong job.

Find a new one.

-Well, I would like to think that there are enough allies that would be here to support you, Jason.

I mean, there's a lot unknown.

I mean... -They just need to be more verbal.

Like, they need to speak up because it really is getting tough and, you know, I don't -- I don't try to, like, say, "Well, I've done so much for this country.

I expect things back."

But it's kind of, if you want me to keep helping defend this country, I need people to not make me be their enemy.

You know, I'm doing a lot of things for this country that not everyone else can do, and I'm happy to do it.

I just don't want to be treated like public enemy number one while I'm doing it.

-Mm-hmm.

-You know?

So I still think that there's a lot of good people in this country.

Just, the good people need to be more verbal.

They need to speak up.

And when people are acting that way, they need to call it out.

-Yeah.

-You know?

-For each and every one of you, thank you so very much for your service.

You know, each and every one of you have and had your own personal challenges.

And getting through that -- getting through the military experience alone is remarkable.

To get to the rank of general, to become the secretary of Wisconsin VA -- that's incredible.

To be saving lives from your helicopter -- phenomenal.

And I tip my cap to each and every one of you.

And I want to thank you so much for being vulnerable, being here, and sharing your truths and your stories.

And to all those other veterans out there who are listening, thank you for their service, too.

-Thank you for the opportunity.

-Yes.

Thank you.

-Thank you, everybody.

-Appreciate it.

♪♪ -♪ There will be light ♪ ♪ There is a road ♪ ♪ Marching on ♪ ♪ Coming home ♪ ♪♪ ♪♪