>>> HELLO, EVERYONE.

WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO." >>> HERE'S WHAT IS COMING UP, UNIMAGINABLE DESTRUCTION AS FIRES BURN ACROSS LOS ANGELES COUNTY, ONE OF THEM IS NOW THE MOST DESTRUCTIVE L.A. HAS EVER SEEN AND WE WILL HAVE THE LATEST.

>>> THEN, JIMMY CARTER IS LAID TO REST IN A STATE FUNERAL, HONORING THE 39th AND LONGEST LIVING PRESIDENT.

CARTER'S FORMER CHIEF SPEECHWRITER JAMES FOLLOWS JOINS US.

AND I WILL UNPACK THE LEGACY OF GOD'S MIDDLE EAST POLICY IN THE HOSTAGE CRISIS.

POLITICAL PRISONER IN IRAN HIMSELF.

>>> ALSO ON THE SHOW-- >> WE VALUE A PRESIDENT WHO WORKS HARD AND IS DECENT.

>> WALTER ISAACSON SPEAKS TO BIOGRAPHER KAI BIRD ABOUT CARTER'S COMMITMENT TO DOING WHAT HE BELIEVED WAS RIGHT, EVEN WHEN IT WAS CLINICALLY RISKY.

>>> "AMANPOUR & CO" IS MADE POSSIBLE IN PART BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT,JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR, THE SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM, THE LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS FAMILY JAY.

MELVIN, THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, AND JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.

>>> AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU, THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYBODY.

I AM CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

APOCALYPTIC THINGS IN LOS ANGELES AS WILDFIRES CONTINUE RAGING OUT OF CONTROL.

TENS OF THOUSANDS OF RESIDENTS BEING FORCED TO PLEAD FLEET IN THE PALISADES NEIGHBORHOOD.

THE BLADE THE MOST DESTRUCTIVE IN HISTORY.

AND FROM THERE, IT LOOKS LIKE A WAR ZONE.

HERE IS CALIFORNIA GOVERNOR, GAVIN NEWSOM.

>> I REALLY AM OPTIMISTIC, CRYING, CONCERNED ABOUT THEIR PET AND FAMILY, THEY ARE BEWILDERED ABOUT WHAT THEY ARE EXPERIENCING, I WAS NOT TALKING ABOUT PAST TENSE, THIS IS HAPPENING IN REAL-TIME.

>> PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS CANCELED HIS OVERSEAS TRIP TO ITALY TO MEET WITH THE POPE IN ORDER TO DEAL WITH THIS FIRE EMERGENCY.

IN ALTADENA, CALIFORNIA, THE EATON FIRE HAS DESTROYED MORE THAN 1000 STRUCTURES AND FORCED MOST OF THE TOWN TO EVACUATE.

CORRESPONDENT KIM LARK IS JOINING ME NOW FROM THERE.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

I CAN'T IMAGINE WHAT IT MUST BE TO TRY TO COVER THIS.

ARE YOU NOTICING ANYTHING DIFFERENT FROM DAY TO DAY, LIKE RIGHT NOW, COMPARED TO EARLIER?

BOARD MET IT HAS BEEN DRAMATICALLY DIFFERENT.

IT IS VERY SURREAL FOR ME, BECAUSE I LIVE RIGHT DOWN ABOUT FIVE MINUTES FROM HERE.

WHAT IS HAPPENING HERE IN ALTADENA, THIS IS A MIDDLE-CLASS COMMUNITY OF SINGLE-FAMILY HOMES, AT LEAST IN THIS SECTION .

THE STRUGGLE TODAY IS, EVEN THE FIRE HAS GONE THROUGH THIS AREA, BUT FIREFIGHTERS ARE NOW HAVING TO FIGHT, YOU CAN TAKE A LOOK ME THIS IS A HOUSE.

THIS IS A NEW FIRE.

SOMEHOW, EMBARRASSED, AT THIS POINT, THEY CAN'T DO THE DIAGNOSTICS, BUT THERE ARE NEW FIRES CONTINUING TO POP UP.

A HOME THAT THOUGHT THEY MADE IT THROUGH THE FIRE, THE FIRST WAVE, THIS IS NOW SOMETHING NEW THAT IS HAPPENING.

FIREFIGHTERS , YOU SEE THE NUMBER OF FIREFIGHTERS THAT ARE OUT HERE.

THESE ARE FIREFIGHTERS THAT HAVE BEEN WORKING IN MANY CASES MORE THAN 24 HOURS STRAIGHT, TRYING TO BATTLE A VERY DANGEROUS FIRE.

THIS HOME OVER HERE, THIS IS A HOME THAT WAS ALREADY FLATTENED.

YOU CAN SEE FURTHER DOWN, THIS IS A LARGE ROAD HERE.

ALL OF THOSE HOMES ARE GONE.

THERE ARE ENTIRE SECTIONS OF THIS COMMUNITY, AND THIS IS A FOOTHILL COMMUNITY, NOT A MOUNTAIN COMMUNITY, THIS IS A FOOTHILL COMMUNITY, THAT HAD BEEN COMPLETELY DESTROYED.

PEOPLE IN THIS COMMUNITY ARE-- I INTERVIEWED ELAINE, WHO HAS LIVED HERE FOR 25 YEARS AND SHE HAS NO IDEA AT THIS STAGE WHAT SHE WILL DO.

A FIRE WITH MORE THAN 10,000 ACRES STILL BURNING DANGEROUSLY ON THOSE HILLS BEHIND US AND FIVE PEOPLE HAVE DIED IN THIS FIRE SO FAR.

>> YOU SAID, YOU LIVE JUST DOWN THE ROAD, SHOWED US ALL THE RESIDENTS HOUSES ABLAZE.

THE EMERGENCY WORKERS SEEM TO SAY IN SOME AREAS, THE WINDS ARE SHIFTING SOMEWHAT, THEY ARE NOT AS HIGH AND HURRICANE LIKE AS THEY WERE YESTERDAY, AND THAT MIGHT HELP THEM.

CAN YOU CONFIRM THAT WHERE YOU ARE?

>> Reporter: NIGHT AND DAY.

I CAN TELL YOU THIS BECAUSE I HAVE BEEN HERE SINCE THE BEGINNING.

MORE THAN 24 HOURS AGO, ME, MY KIDS, MY HUSBAND, WE SLEPT WELL LAST NIGHT IN A PLACE THAT WE EVACUATED TO.

THE WINDOWS WERE NOT SHAKING.

THE NIGHT BEFORE, I THOUGHT EVERY SINGLE WINDOW IN THE HOME WAS GOING TO EXPLODE BECAUSE OF HURRICANE FORCE WINDS.

IT WAS UNBELIEVABLE.

TODAY, YOU CAN STILL SEE, THERE'S JUST A LITTLE OF SOME OF THE EMBERS COMING THROUGH.

IT IS A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT STORY.

WHAT FIREFIGHTERS CANNOT DO TODAY IS BEGIN TO DRAW CONTAINMENT LINES.

I CAN TELL YOU RIGHT NOW, THE TWO BIG FIRES, THE PALISADES FIRE AND THE EATON FIRE ARE 0% CONTAINED.

THEY ARE BEGINNING TO AT LEAST MAKE SOME HEADWAY.

THE BIG PROBLEM, THOUGH, THERE ARE SO MANY HOMES LOST.

THIS IS NOW GOING TO BE A FINANCIAL DISASTER FOR ENTIRE COMMUNITIES.

>> YOU MENTIONED PALISADES, OBVIOUSLY.

IT IS BEING CALLED THE WORST L.A. FIRE IN HISTORY.

WE HAVE HEARD FROM LOTS OF PEOPLE, SINGING THE TERRIBLE DAMAGE, AND WHOLE COMMUNITIES ARE BEING DESTROYED THERE.

WE SHOWED THE DRONE PICTURES OF WHAT LOOKS LIKE A WAR ZONE.

CAN YOU TELL US ANYTHING ELSE ABOUT WHAT IS HAPPENING THERE?

YOU SAY, 0% CONTAINED RIGHT NOW?

>> Reporter: 0% CONTAINMENT ON BOTH OF THESE FIRES.

YESTERDAY, IT WAS EXTRAORDINARY, CHRISTIANE.

YES, WE KNEW ABOUT THE PALISADES FIRE THAT HAD BROKEN OUT A LITTLE LESS THAN 24 HOURS AGO, THAT WAS A HUGE PROBLEM.

THEN, IT BECAME LACRIMAL.

THE EATON FIRE, ANOTHER FIRE, THE HEARSE FIRE, AND FIREFIGHTERS WHO ARE BEING STRESSED STRETCHED ALL OVER THE PLACE, THERE SIMPLY AREN'T ENOUGH PEOPLE ON THE GROUND TRYING TO DEAL WITH THESE EXTRAORDINARY CONDITIONS.

THE AMOUNT OF WATER WE GOT HERE IN CALIFORNIA, THAT LED TO EXTRAORDINARY GROWTH.

JUST WONDERFUL TREES READ MY GARDEN WAS DOING GREAT.

THIS YEAR, I DO NOT REMEMBER THE LAST TIME IT RAINED.

EXTRAORDINARILY DRY.

EVEN AS I PICK THIS UP HERE, YOU CAN SEE, ALL OF THIS, IT IS DEAD AND DRIED OUT.

AND THIS IS A HOME WITH SPRINKLERS.

OUR GARDENS NOW ARE NOTHING BUT TIMBER.

THAT IS ACROSS THIS ENTIRE AREA.

MIX THAT WITH HURRICANE FORCE WINDS I WAS TELLING YOU ABOUT, YOU HAVE A RECIPE FOR DISASTER IN AREAS LIKE THIS, 25 YEARS AGO WHEN THESE RESIDENTS MOVED IN, THEY NEVER THOUGHT THERE WOULD BE A FIRE HERE.

THAT WAS UNTHINKABLE.

YOU CAN'T STOP IT.

>> WE HAVE HEARD AND SEEN PICTURES OF SCHOOLS, SCHOOL DISTRICTS, SHOPS, HOSPITALS.

SO MUCH, NOT JUST HOMES.

CAN I ASK YOU, WHEN YOU INTERVIEW PEOPLE, I REALIZE THEY ARE DEALING WITH AN EMERGENCY RIGHT NOW, BUT DOES THE CONCEPT OF EXTREME WEATHER, THE SORT OF SECURITY CHALLENGE OF CLIMATE AND ALL OF THAT, DOES IT EVER COME UP?

>> IT DOES, BUT LET'S PUT THIS INTO REAL TERMS, IT'S A REAL, WORKING CLASS TERMS.

I AM STAYING IN A HOME THAT IS FURTHER SOUTH OF HERE, AWAY FROM THE FIRE, WITH ANOTHER FAMILY WHO LIVES HERE IN ALTADENA.

I LIVE IN A COMMUNITY RIGHT NEXT TO ALTADENA.

WHAT SHE WAS WONDERING, AND THIS IS THE MOTHER OF TWO KIDS, WHERE DO YOU GO?

IF YOU ARE ALREADY FINANCIALLY BAKED INTO A COMMUNITY ME EVEN THOUGH CLIMATE DISASTER AND WILDFIRE IS A PART OF OUR DAILY LIFE NOW, ESPECIALLY IN CALIFORNIA, WHERE DO YOU GO?

WHERE'D YOU GO THAT YOU CAN AFFORD, THAT IS SAFE, WHERE YOU HAVE A JOB?

IT IS NOT AS SIMPLE AS, JUST MOVE SOMEWHERE ELSE.

THAT IS FAR TOO LUXURIOUS TO THINK ABOUT, NOT WHEN YOU HAVE KIDS, WHEN YOU PROPERTY, AND THEN YOU HAVE TO THEN REALIZE, THIS IS WHAT OUR CLIMATE EMERGENCY IS LINKED TO.

>> IT IS REALLY DRAMATIC AND YOU DESCRIBED IT VERY VIVIDLY.

GOOD LUCK TO YOU AND EVERYBODY THERE WHO ARE TRYING TO SURVIVE THIS AND BATTLE IT.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>>> NOW, ONE OF THE FIRST U.S. PRESIDENT TO RECOGNIZE THE IMPORTANCE OF ADDRESSING ENVIRONMENTAL CHALLENGES WAS JIMMY CARTER.

HE EMPHASIZED CONSERVING ENERGY AND ADVOCATED FOR RENEWABLE ENERGY THAT LAID THE GROUNDWORK FOR LATER CLIMATE ACTION.

TODAY, AMERICA AND THE WORLD WATCHED AS WELL, PAUSED TO SAY GOODBYE TO THE FORMER PRESIDENT AND HUMANITARIAN.

THE FUNERAL WAS ATTENDED BY ALL FIVE LIVING PRESIDENTS.

PRESIDENT BIDEN DELIVERED THE EULOGY.

>> TODAY, MANY THINK HE WAS FROM A BYGONE ERA, BUT IN REALITY, HE SOUGHT WELL INTO THE FUTURE.

A WHITE, SOUTHERN BAPTIST, WHO LED ON CIVIL RIGHTS, A DECORATED NAVY VETERAN, WHO BROKERED PEACE, A BRILLIANT NUCLEAR ENGINEER WHO LED A NUCLEAR NONPROLIFERATION, A HARD-WORKING FARMER, WHO CHAMPIONED CONSERVATION AND CLEAN ENERGY, THE PRESIDENT WHO REDEFINED THE RELATIONSHIP WITH THE VICE PRESIDENT.

JAMIE AND I OFTEN TALK ABOUT OUR DEAR FRIEND, WALTER MONDALE, WHO WE ALL MISS VERY MUCH.

TOGETHER, THEY FORMED A MODEL PARTNERSHIP, A COLLABORATION, AND TRUST.

>> A HUGELY FULL LIFE, AND JAMES FALLOWS WAS BY CARTER'S SIDE THROUGH MUCH OF HIS PRESIDENCY.

HE SERVED AS CHIEF SPEECHWRITER AND AFTERWARDS, FALLOWS BECAME A PROMINENT JOURNALIST .

HE IS JOINING ME NOW FROM WASHINGTON, D.C.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, JAMES FALLOWS .

I KNOW YOU ARE WATCHING THIS FUNERAL AS SOME PEOPLE WERE, WHAT WERE YOU THINKING AS SOME OF THOSE TRIBUTES FLOATED IN TODAY?

SEGMENT THERE WERE THREE TRIBUTES THAT STRUCK ME ESPECIALLY TODAY.

ONE WAS BY STEPHEN FORD, THE SON OF GERALD FORD, WHO OF COURSE GERALD HAD DEFEATED IN 1976.

HE TALKED ABOUT HOW CARTER AND FORD BECAME CLOSE FRIENDS AFTER A VERY CLOSE, AND SURPRISINGLY BITTER RACE, AND THAT EACH OF THEM AGREED TO GIVE THE EULOGY AT THE OTHER'S FUNERAL.

THE QUESTION WAS, WHICH ONE WOULD BE THERE IN REAL TIME, WHICH ONE VIRTUALLY?

STEPHEN FORD READ THE EULOGY GERALD FORD WOULD HAVE GIVEN FOR JIMMY CARTER, WHICH WAS FULL OF TRIBUTES TO HIS CHARACTER, TO HIS BELIEF IN AMERICAN VALUES, TO HIS EXPANSIVE VIEW, THAT WAS VERY IMPRESSIVE HERE THERE WAS JASON CARTER, GRANDSON OF JIMMY CARTER, WHO GAVE A VERY HUMOROUS DESCRIPTION OF HIS GRANDFATHER.

HE WAS SAYING, A NUCLEAR ENGINEER, BUT ONE TIME HE ACCIDENTALLY CALLED HIS GRANDSON AND HE THOUGHT HE WAS TAKING A PHOTO ON HIS CELL PHONE, THAT GOT LAUGHS FROM THE AUDIENCE.

AND THEN OF COURSE, THERE WAS JOE BIDEN, WHO WAS GIVING WHAT WAS AN EXTREMELY HARD EDGED THE EULOGY IN MY VIEW.

HE TALKED ABOUT ALL THE THINGS JIMMY CARTER ACCOMPLISHED, INCLUDING HUMAN RIGHTS, THE ENVIRONMENTAL VISIONARY EMPHASIS THAT HE HAD, AND HIS WORK FOR RACIAL RECONCILIATION.

AT LEAST A DOZEN TIMES, BIDEN VERY STRONGLY EMPHASIZED THE IMPORTANCE OF CHARACTER, AND KINDNESS, AND HONESTY, AND PRINCIPAL, AND AVOIDING HATRED, BEING TRUE TO AMERICAN INSTITUTIONS.

MANY OF THOSE TIMES, HE LOOKED DIRECTLY AT THE MOST RECENT OF THE PRESIDENT SITTING THERE, DONALD TRUMP WAS SITTING UNCOMFORTABLY NEXT TO BARACK OBAMA, UNCOMFORTABLE FOR OBAMA, I BELIEVE.

BIDEN GAVE WHAT WAS FOR HIM A HARD EDGE SPEECH, I THOUGHT.

I THOUGHT IT WAS QUITE AN APPROPRIATE END TO THESE TRIBUTES FOR CARTER, I THOUGHT.

SEGMENT I WANT TO ASK YOU, YOU MENTIONED FORD AND CARTER AGREEING TO GIVE THE EULOGY AT EACH OTHER'S, WHEN YOU SEE THE FIVE SITTING THERE, AND ACTUALLY, OBAMA WAS SMILING AND SITTING WITH TRUMP FOR A FALL, I DON'T KNOW WHAT WAS BEING SAID, BUT IT WAS EVIDENT THERE WAS A LOT OF BONHOMIE GOING ON FOR THE WORLD.

CAN YOU IMAGINE ANY OF THOSE PRESIDENTS DOING THAT FOR EACH OTHER?

SEGMENT INTERESTING.

I CAN IMAGINE-- OH, AL GORE, AND OFTEN THE VERY CONTESTED BUSH B. GORE RACE IN 2000 WAS SITTING DIRECTLY BEHIND GEORGE W. BUSH.

I THINK YOU COULD SEE HIM IN THAT SHOT IMMEDIATELY BEHIND HIM.

I THINK THE TWO OF THEM HAVE BECOME CIVIL.

I THINK, ESSENTIALLY FOR ALL OF THE PRESIDENTS, WILL BE WITH THE EXCEPTION OF TRUMP, THERE IS A SENSE THEY ARE A PART OF A FRATERNITY, LITERALLY A FRATERNITY, AS OPPOSED TO A SORORITY AND FRATERNITY, OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE UNDERSTOOD UNIQUELY THE PRESSURES THAT COME WITH THAT OFFICE.

JIMMY CARTER SEEN FOR A WHILE AN OUTSIDER IN THAT GROUP BECAUSE OF HIS VERY INDEPENDENT, DO IT MY OWN WAY SPIRIT, I THINK EVEN HE IS SEEN BY HIS FRIENDSHIP WITH GERALD FORD, RECOGNIZE THEY HAVE SOMETHING IN COMMON.

ONE OF THE THINGS I LEARNED WHEN I WORKED IN THE WHITE HOUSE FOR CARTER IS THAT, THE ONLY DECISIONS A PRESIDENT TO MAKE ARE THE IMPOSSIBLE ONES.

ANY DECISIONS, EVEN 5149, SOMEONE ELSE MAKES.

YOU ONLY GET THE DECISIONS TO MAKE WHERE IT IS LOSE, LOSE ON ALL SIDES.

MOST OF THEM, YOU CAN IMAGINE THEM SHARING A BOND OF HAVING BEEN IN THAT UNIQUE HOTSEAT.

AND THEN, THEY HAVE THIS OTHER OUTLIER WHO WAS ON THE FAR END OF THE PEW.

>> JAMES FALLOWS , ANOTHER PROFOUND SPEECH WAS WITHOUT NOTE BY 92-YEAR-OLD ANDREW YOUNG, CARTER'S U.N.

AMBASSADOR AND A CIVIL RIGHTS LEADER IN HIS OWN TERM, AND HE SPOKE ABOUT HOW CARTER WAS A MINORITY.

LIGHTS WERE A MINORITY IN PLAINS AND THE AREA WHERE CARTER GREW UP, AND THAT SENSE OF MINORITY PROPELLED HIM TO HIS FIGHT AND STRUGGLE FOR EQUAL RIGHTS, CIVIL RIGHTS, HUMAN RIGHTS.

AND HE ALSO SAID -- I DON'T KNOW HOW IT IS GOING TO GO DOWN HERE, BUT I NEVER COULD HAVE IMAGINED, TO THIS DAY I CAN'T UNDERSTAND HOW A BOY FROM PLAINS, OR A MAN FROM PLAINS BECAME PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES .

YOU WERE THERE WHEN IT HAPPENED, HOW DID HE MAKE IT?

>> SO HE MADE IT, AND IT IS STILL THE CASE IT IS THE MOST RAPID ASCENT IN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORY.

ONE YEAR BEFORE HE WAS SWORN IN IN 1977, JIMMY CARTER'S NAME WAS 1%.

EVERYONE ELSE WHO HAD TAKEN THE OFFICE WAS FAMOUS IN HIS NAME, SOMEWHAT OR THE OTHER, FROM GEORGE WASHINGTON, DONALD TRUMP AS A TV STAR, EVEN BARACK OBAMA HAD BECOME A KNOWN FIGURE IN THE PREVIOUS FOUR YEARS.

HE WON THROUGH A STRATEGY OF-- THROUGH A COMBINATION OF, THAT LOOK FOR THE COUNTRY, GOOD LUCK FOR HIM AND CAREFUL STRATEGY.

THE BAD LUCK FOR HIM WITH THE COUNTRY IS THE MANY TERRIBLE TIME HE FOLLOW SAIGON WAS JUST MONTHS IN THE PAST, THE WATERGATE MOVES, AND RESIGNATION OF RICHARD NIXON WERE STILL RAW AND OPEN.

STAGFLATION WAS BEGINNING.

IT WAS A REALLY, REALLY BAD TIME.

THERE WAS A PROFOUND SENSE OF WANTING SOMETHING NEW.

THAT WAS THE BAD LUCK FOR THE COUNTRY.

THE GOOD LUCK FOR JIMMY CARTER WAS THAT HE CAME ONTO THE NATIONAL NOTICE IN MANY WAYS.

HUNTER S. THOMPSON, WROTE A VERY IMPORTANT ARTICLE IN ROLLING STONE, BASED ON A SPEECH CARTER HAD GIVEN AT A CEREMONY IN GEORGIA SAYING, THIS WAS SOMEBODY WHO UNDERSTANDS THE NEED FOR REAL, AMERICAN JUSTICE.

AS ANDREW YOUNG, HAVING COMING FROM A WHITE MINORITY, AND FAIRLY RACIST PART OF GEORGIA, WHEN HE WAS GOVERNOR SAID, THE TIME FOR RACIAL DISCRIMINATION IS OVER.

HE FAMOUSLY PUT MARTIN LUTHER KING'S PORTRAIT IN THE GEORGIA STATE CAPITAL.

HE MANAGED TO BRIDGE BLACK VERSUS WHITE, OLD VERSUS YOUNG PRO-VETERAN, NAVAL ACADEMY GRADUATE VERSUS ANTIWAR PEOPLE, ENVIRONMENTALISTS, HE BECAME A BRIDGING FIGURE WHO HAD A KIND OF MAGIC THAT MADE PEOPLE THINK THIS GUY COULD BE THE ANSWER.

THEN, THERE WAS STRATEGY THAT HE WAS THE PERSON THAT INVENTED THE IOWA CAUCUSES.

JODY POWELL, HIS COMRADES THOUGHT I COULD MAKE HIM PRESIDENT AND THEY PIONEERED THAT WAY OF DOING THINGS.

>> THAT IS REALLY INTERESTING.

I WANT TO ASK YOU, BECAUSE YOU SAID A COUPLE OF THINGS AFTERWARDS.

YOU SAID, IT WAS EASIER TO ADMIRE HIM THEN TO WORK FOR HIM IN "THE ATLANTIC" IN 1979, AFTER YOU WROTE CARTER'S WILLFUL IGNORANCE, HIS BLISSFULNESS COULD TIMMY BE EXPLAINED ONLY BY ACCOMMODATION OF ARROGANCE, COMPLACENCY, AND DREAD THOUGHT INSECURITY AT THE CORE OF HIS MIND AND SOUL.

HE WAS YOUR BOSS, YOUR MENTOR, YOUR FRIEND.

WHAT CAUSED YOU TO WRITE THAT?

>> SO I THINK 45 YEARS AGO, THAT ASSESSMENT HELD UP FOR THE REALITIES OF 45 YEARS AGO.

I THINK THE WIDESPREAD SENSE AMONG MANY PEOPLE WHO HAD SUPPORTED CARTER, WHO RESPECTED HIM, WAS THAT THE PROMISE HE BROUGHT INTO OFFICE, AGAIN, WHEN HE WAS THE MOST POPULAR FIRST-TIME PRESIDENT EVER, WITH RATINGS HIGHER THAN REAGAN, OR OBAMA, OR ANYBODY ELSE'S, WAS BEING SQUANDERED IN WAYS THAT WEREN'T CORRECTABLE.

IT WAS A SENSE OF NOT KNOWING THINGS HE DID NOT KNOW.

I THINK IT WAS TO CARTER'S CREDIT, HE WAS THE SAME PERSON IN EVERY DECADE OF HIS LIFE, EVERY CHAPTER OF HIS LIFE.

IN HIS 44 YEARS OF FORMER PRESIDENT, THAT WAS HIS STRENGTH OF BEING ABLE TO ENGAGE CAUSES AROUND THE WORLD, KILL OFF PRACTICALLY THE GINNY WARM TO MONITOR ELECTIONS, WORK FOR HABITAT FOR HUMANITY, WRITE BOOKS.

WHEN HE WAS IN OFFICE, THESE WERE BOTH A+ AND EIGHT MINUS.

IT SEEMED A CORRECTABLE MINUS.

THAT WAS THE THING MANY PEOPLE, INCLUDING ME, WERE SAYING, THIS CAN BE TURNED AROUND IF WE CHANGE COURSE.

I THINK THE ANALYSIS STANDS UP FROM FIVE YEARS AGO.

I AM GLAD HE HAD THE 45 YEARS AS FORMER PRESIDENT TO SHOW THE THINGS HE COULD DO.

HE CREATED THE POST-PRESIDENCY, DIDN'T HE?

HE IS THE MOST SUCCESSFUL PRESIDENT-- POST-PRESIDENT IN AMERICAN HISTORY.

I ALSO WANT TO LAY OUT THINGS HE SAID IN HIS SPEECH IN NOTRE DAME.

IT WAS ABOUT RECOGNIZING AND PUTTING HUMAN RIGHTS AT THE CENTER OF HUMAN AMERICAN POLICY, MOST NOTICEABLY OVERSEAS, BUT I GUESS AT HOME AS WELL.

WE HAVE PICTURES ALSO OF THE GUN SALUTE AT-- YOU KNOW, CARTER'S COFFIN ARRIVING AT JOINT BASE ANDREWS.

I JUST WANT TO PLAY THIS.

>> WE HAVE REAFFIRMED AMERICA'S COMMITMENT TO HUMAN RIGHTS AS A FUNDAMENTAL TENET OF OUR FOREIGN POLICY.

I UNDERSTAND FULLY THE LIMITS OF MORAL PERSUASION.

WE HAVE NO ILLUSION THAT CHANGES WILL COME EASILY OR SOME, BUT I ALSO BELIEVE IT IS A MISTAKE TO UNDERVALUE THE POWER OF WORDS, AND OF THE IDEAS THAT WERE IN BODY.

>> ALL THESE DECADES LATER, HE IS STILL REMEMBERED FOR PUTTING HUMAN RIGHTS AT THE CENTER, BUT SEEMED TO BE CLEAR RIGHT ABOUT THE LIMITS OF THAT.

>> YES, AS YOU PLAY THAT PASSAGE, IT BRINGS IT ALL BACK.

THAT WAS A SPEECH I WAS CLOSELY INVOLVED IN, OF COURSE MANY OF THE COMMENTS OF THE PEOPLE OF THE WHITE HOUSE.

I THINK IT IS A SPEECH THAT STANDS UP WELL.

THE PASSAGE FOLLOWING WHAT YOU READ, WE HAVE EXAMPLES IN OUR OWN HISTORY FROM THOMAS PAINE TO MARTIN LUTHER KING, THE POWER THAT WORDS CAN HAVE.

I THINK THE COMPLEXITY OF THIS POLICY, AS HE ANNOUNCED IT THEN , OBVIOUSLY, NO POWERFUL NATION CAN HAVE A FOREIGN POLICY BASED FULLY ON CIVIL RIGHTS.

ANY NATION HAS REAL, POLITICAL INTEREST AROUND THE WORLD.

IT MATTERS TO SAY WHAT YOU STAND FOR, TO SAY WHERE YOU ARE HEADING, TO SAY WHERE YOU BELIEVE THE ARC OF HISTORY SHOULD LEAD.

THAT COMMENCEMENT AT NOTRE DAME IN 1977 I THINK STANDS AS ONE OF CARTER'S FOREIGN POLICY LEGACIES, ALONG WITH CAMP DAVID, THE MENTION OF THE PANAMA CANAL TREATY.

ALSO, THE PRESIDENTS SINCE KIM OFTEN HAVE INSPIRED TO AND FUTURE PRESIDENTS SHOULD.

>> IS THAT YOU DID NOT WRITE, AND PRACTICALLY THE WHOLE WORLD KNOWS IT, THEY CALL IT THE MALAISE SPEECH.

ACTUALLY, IT WAS MUCH MORE POSITIVE AND CONSTRUCTIVE THAN PEOPLE GIVE HIM CREDIT FOR.

I'M GOING TO PLAY A LITTLE SNAP OUT OF IT AND THEN WE WILL TALK.

>> THE THREAT IS NEARLY INVISIBLE, IN ORDINARY WAYS.

IT IS A CRISIS OF CONFIDENCE.

IT IS A CRISIS THAT STRIKES AT THE VERY HEART AND SOUL, AND SPIRIT OF OUR NATIONAL WILL.

WE CAN SEE THIS CRISIS IN A GROWING DOUBT ABOUT THE MEANING OF OUR OWN LIVES, AND IN THE LOSS OF A UNITY, A PURPOSE OF OUR NATION.

>> TAKE US BACK AND TELL US WHAT HE WAS TRYING TO SAY IN THAT WHOLE SPEECH.

>> IT WAS SUMMER OF 1979, STARTING PROBABLY IN THE SECOND HALF OF HIS PRESIDENCY, AND THINGS WERE JUST FALLING APART, BASICALLY, ON EVERY FRONT FOR JIMMY CARTER AND HIS ADMINISTRATION THEN.

INFLATION WAS BEGINNING TO SOAR, HIS POPULARITY RATINGS FROM A VERY HIGH LEVEL WERE BEGINNING TO PLUMMET.

THERE WAS TERMINAL AROUND THE WORLD, SOVIET UNION, SOVIET UNION AND IRAN, AND THE AMERICAS .

THERE WAS NOT ANYTHING YOU COULD SAY ABOUT DISCONTENT IN THE UNITED STATES THE PAST FOUR OR FIVE YEARS WAS QUADRUPLED BACK THEN.

JIMMY CARTER WENT TO CAMP DAVID HE HAD A NUMBER OF ADVISORS, HISTORIANS, PHILOSOPHERS, RELIGIOUS LEADERS COME AND TALK TO HIM AND GAVE THE SPEECH.

SOMETHING THAT MANY PEOPLE KNOW, THE MALAISE OF SPEECH, EVEN THOUGH HE NEVER USED THAT WORD, WHAT FEW PEOPLE REMEMBER, IN A WEEK OR SO AFTER HE GAVE IT, THE SPEECH WAS ENORMOUSLY POPULAR.

JIMMY CARTER'S APPROVAL RATING WENT UP BY AT LEAST 10 POINTS, MAYBE 12 POINTS IN THE WAKE OF IT, A HUGE LANDSLIDE, AN EARTHQUAKE IN OPINION RATINGS.

PEOPLE HAD FELT THAT HE HAD AGAIN CONNECTED WITH SOME NERVE OF THE AMERICAN PSYCHE.

AFTER THAT, HE ASKED FOR ALL MEMBERS OF HIS CABINET TO SUBMIT THEIR RESIGNATIONS, WHICH WAS SEEN AS A STEP TOWARD DISORDER.

IT SORT OF STEPPED ON THE NEWS ABOUT THE SPEECH.

I THINK THAT CARTER'S SPEECH NOW, IF READ NOW OR LISTENED TO, STANDS UP AS A PRESIDENT TRYING TO ADDRESS WHAT WE NOW KNOW ARE VERY CONTEMPORARY CONCERNS, WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF THE COUNTRY, THE SOUL OF THE COUNTRY, THE BALANCE BETWEEN THE GOOD AND INDIVIDUAL SHORT- TERM GOOD?

IT WAS VERY POPULAR FOR A WALK APPEARANCE >> AND JAMES FALLOWS, WE WILL DISCUSS MORE FOREIGN POLICY IN DETAIL WITH MY NEXT GUEST, BUT YOU WERE THERE WHEN JIMMY CARTER WAS ESSENTIALLY CRIPPLED BY THE IRAN HOSTAGE CRISIS, AND YOU SAY , HE WAS OBSESSED BY IT, HE SAYS, HE WAS OBSESSED BY IT, THE HOSTAGES, THEY OF COURSE WERE NOT RELEASED UNTIL MINUTES AFTER REAGAN'S INAUGURATION.

TELL ME HOW THAT AFFECTED HIM.

>> I THINK TO HIS STRENGTH, SOMETIMES TO HIS DETRIMENT, JIMMY CARTER WAS A MASTER OF DETAIL.

THE CAMP DAVID ACCORDS WOULD HAVE NEVER HAPPENED WITHOUT JIMMY CARTER'S PERSONALLY, TIRELESSLY ENGAGEMENT AND A NUMBER OF OTHER THINGS, DEFENSE SPENDING.

HE LOOKED AT CHARTS FOR INDIVIDUAL WEAPONS, AND SO ON.

WHEN IT CAME TO THE IRANIAN HOSTAGES, THIS BECAME A POLITICAL MILLSTONE AROUND HIS NECK.

THEY BELIEVE THE ANNIVERSARY OF THEIR BEING SEIZED IN TORONTO TEHRAN WAS ELECTION DAY, OR RIGHT AROUND ELECTION DAY A YEAR LATER.

SO, CARTER, WITH HIS TRADEMARK INTENSITY, WAS TRYING TO SEE WHAT COULD BE DONE, WHAT DID THE IRANIANS WANT?

THERE WAS A WHOLE SEPARATE LITERATURE YOU ARE WELL AWARE OF IN WHICH THE REAGAN OPERATION CAMPAIGN APPEARED TO BE DEALING WITH THE IRANIAN HOSTAGE HOLDERS TO ENSURE THE HOSTAGES WERE NOT RELEASED ON JIMMY CARTER'S WATCH.

IT BECAME SOMETHING HE FELT HE COULD SOLVE, AS HE SOLVED OTHER PROBLEMS, AND SIX MONTHS BEFORE THE ELECTION, THERE WAS THE DISASTER IS DESERT ONE RESCUE MENTIONED, WHERE HELICOPTERS CRASHED.

I THINK THAT MAY BE A TIME, IF THERE WERE IN THE CAMPAIGN, IT WORKED THEN.

>> I THINK HE SAID, IF ONLY HE HAD ANOTHER HELICOPTER, BEING ABLE TO EXECUTE THAT MISSION.

JAMES FALLOWS, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR MEMORIES, YOUR PERSPECTIVE , AND ALL OF THIS WISDOM ABOUT JIMMY CARTER.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH, INDEED.

>>> AS WE SAID, HIS LEGACY IS DEFINED BY THIS COUNTRY, IRAN.

HE WAS CONSUMED BY THE HOSTAGE CRISIS WHEN THEY STORMED TEHRAN AND HELD 52 AMERICANS HOSTAGE FOR 422 DAYS.

CARTER ORDERED A RESCUE MISSION, BUT THAT FAILED WHEN TWO OF THE HELICOPTERS COLLIDED.

>> THERE WAS NO FIGHTING, NO COMBAT, BUT TO MY DEEP REGRET, THE KREMLIN OF THE TWO AIRCRAFT WHICH COLLIDED WERE KILLED.

>> THAT CRISIS PLAYED A LARGE ROLE IN CARTER'S LOSS TO RONALD REAGAN IN THE 1980 ELECTION.

TO UNPACK THE LEGACY SOMEWHERE, I AM JOINED BY HISTORIAN, AUTHOR OF "THE SHAW," WITH ME FROM STANFORD, CALIFORNIA.

WELCOME BACK TO OUR PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> CAN I ASK YOU SOMETHING, PROFESSOR?

MANY IRANIANS, CERTAINLY THOSE THAT SUPPORTED THE SHAH, BELIEVES THAT THEY LOST AROUND, THIS WESTERN FRIENDLY NATION , AND ENABLES THE FUNDAMENTALIST TO COME IN.

AT THE FUNERAL, EISENSTADT, A MEMBER OF CARTER'S ADVISORS AND CABINET SAID, CARTER DID NOT LOSE IRAN, THE SHAH LOST IRAN.

WHAT WAS GOING THROUGH YOUR MIND AS AN IRANIAN WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT CARTER NOW?

>> I THINK THE ROLE HE HAD IN LOSING IRAN, BUT I DO THINK HE HELPED IRAN GET LOST TO THE CLERGY , BECAUSE THERE WAS AN INCONSISTENCY IN HIS POLICY.

HE BEGAN EARLY ON WITH ADVOCATING FOR HUMAN RIGHTS THAT CHANGED THE LANDSCAPE IN IRAN, WHEN HE REALIZED THAT CHANGE WAS BEGINNING TO SERIOUSLY WEAKEN THE SHAH, IT WAS OCCUPIED BY CAMP DAVIS, NOT PAYING ATTENTION TO IRAN.

BY THE TIME HE DECIDED TO PAY ATTENTION TO IRAN, HE WAS GETTING THREE DIFFERENT ADVICES.

HE WAS GETTING ONE ADVICE FROM SULLIVAN, HIS AMBASSADOR IN IRAN, AN ARROGANT MAN WHOSE ARROGANCE ONLY MATCHED HIS IGNORANCE OF POLITICS IN IRAN.

HE WAS GETTING ONE OTHER ADVICE FROM VANCE, HIS SECRETARY OF STATE, WHO KEPT ADVOCATING FOR CONTINUOUS HUMAN RIGHTS PRESSURE .

AND HE WAS GETTING, I THINK, THE WISEST ADVICE FROM BRZEZINSKI, WHO REALIZED THAT HUMAN RIGHTS POLICIES ARE GOING TO GET THE SHAH ESSENTIALLY THROWN OUT OF THE COUNTRY .

CARTER COULD NOT MAKE UP HIS MIND AND BY THE TIME HE MADE UP HIS MIND, I THINK IT WAS TOO LATE.

THERE IS A MISCONCEPTION SOME OF THE ROYALISTS HAVE, CARTER CONSPIRED TO OVERTHROW THE SHAH.

I THINK THAT IS AGAINST EVERY EVIDENCE I HAVE SEEN IN THE ARCHIVE.

OCTOBER '78, CARTER WENT OUT OF HIS WAY TO TRY TO KEEP THE SHAH IN POWER, BUT BY THE TIME HE WAS MAKING THAT EFFORT, I THINK IT WAS ALREADY TOO LATE.

>> AND OF COURSE HE WAS DENIED ASYLUM BY CARTER AND THE SHAH WANDERED AROUND THE WORLD UNTIL HE DIED IN EGYPT.

OF COURSE, WHEN HE DID COME IN FOR TREATMENT, THAT PROMPTED THE HOSTAGE CRISIS.

IN YOUR MIND, HAVING STUDIED AND WRITTEN, AND TALK ABOUT THIS , DO YOU THINK THERE WAS ANY WAY THE UNITED STATES COULD HAVE HAD A DIFFERENT RELATIONSHIP WITH THE IRON DOLLARS BEFORE THE HOSTAGE CRISIS, OR EVEN COULD THAT HAVE BEEN DONE IN A DIFFERENT WAY?

WHAT THE UNITED STATES ALWAYS DESTINED TO HAVE THIS ENTITY WITH THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF IRAN?

DID YOU HEAR ME?

ABBAS MILANI, CAN YOU HEAR ME ?

YES, I THINK THE LINE MAY HAVE DROPPED.

WE ARE GOING TO COME BACK TO YOU.

HOLD ON A SEGMENT SECOND, WE WILL GO TO ANOTHER SEGMENT FOR THE MOMENT WITH MORE OF THE LIFE AND LEGACY OF JIMMY CARTER WITH PULITZER PRIZE WINNER KAI BIRD.

YOU WILL REMEMBER HIM FROM HIS OPPENHEIMER BIOGRAPHY, TURNED INTO A NUMBER ONE FILM.

HIS BOOK ABOUT CARTER IS CALLED "THE OUTLIER," REGARDING THE POST-CIVIL WAR SOUTH, AND THAT SHAPED CARTER'S VIEWS ON POLITICS.

HEARD DISCUSSED THIS WITH WALTER ISAACSON AND THEY TALKED ABOUT HOW CARTER'S POST- PRESIDENCY LEGACY STEROID SWORD.

>> WELCOME.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> PRESIDENT JIMMY CARTER WAS BORN JUST TWO GENERATIONS AFTER THE CIVIL WAR.

IN HIS MEMOIR, HE HAS THIS WONDERFUL LINE.

HE SAYS, I GREW UP IN ONE OF THOSE FAMILIES WHOSE PEOPLE CANNOT FORGET THAT WE HAD BEEN CONQUERED, IN OTHER WORDS, THE SOUTH HAD BEEN CONQUERED BY THE NORTH.

WHILE MOST OF OUR NEIGHBORS WERE BLACK PEOPLE WHOSE GRANDPARENTS HAD BEEN LIBERATED IN THAT SAME CONFLICT.

HOW DID THAT AFFECT HIM?

>> WALTER, THAT IS A GREAT QUESTION.

I KNOW THAT COMES RIGHT OUT OF HIS CHILDHOOD MEMOIR.

THAT CAPTURES HIS WHOLE LIFE'S STORY, IN A SENSE, IN THAT HE REALLY GREW UP IN THE SOUTHERN CULTURE THAT WAS DRENCHED IN THE KNOWLEDGE THAT HIS PEOPLE HAD BEEN DEFEATED, THEY HAD KNOWN DEFEAT AND OCCUPATION.

HE, AS AN ADULT, SOUTHERN WHITE MAN, HE WAS AWARE OF AMERICA'S LIMITS.

HE WAS AWARE THAT THERE COULD BE DEFEAT.

IT MADE HIM VERY PRAGMATIC, AND DOWN TO EARTH.

OF COURSE, HE GREW UP IN ARCHERY, THIS LITTLE HAMLET TWO MILES DOWN THE ROAD FROM PLAINS.

INDEED, HE WAS VIRTUALLY THE ONLY LITTLE WHITE BOY THERE AND ALL OF HIS PLAYMATES WERE AFRICAN AMERICANS.

THAT TOO GAVE HIM A DIFFERENT SENSIBILITY AS AN AMERICAN.

IT MADE HIM A SOUTHERN, WHITE LIBERAL INSTINCTIVELY AND EXTREMELY COMFORTABLE IN HIS OWN SKIN AROUND AFRICAN AMERICANS AND BLACK SOUTHERN BAPTIST CHURCHES.

SO, THAT IS JIMMY CARTER.

>> YOU LOOK AT HIS FATHER.

HIS FATHER HAD LOTS OF LAND, SHARECROPPERS, BLACK SHARECROPPERS ME BUT HE WAS QUITE THE WHITE SUPREMACIST.

HOW COME JIMMY CARTER DID NOT END UP THAT WAY?

>> MS. LILLIAN.

HIS MOTHER WAS BEING COUNTERBALANCED TO HIS VERY RACIST FATHER, WHO WAS A VERY CONVENTIONAL WHITE, SOUTHERN MAN IN SOUTH GEORGIA.

MS. LILLIAN WAS JUST A DIFFERENT SENSIBILITY.

SHE WAS HER OWN INDEPENDENT SPIRIT.

SHE BECAME A NURSE.

JIMMY WAS BORN IN THE HOSPITAL IN PLAINS, THE FIRST AMERICAN PRESIDENT TO BE BORN IN A HOSPITAL.

SHE WAS JUST THE OPPOSITE OF HER HUSBAND.

SHE ENCOURAGED HER SON TO PLAY WITH AFRICAN AMERICANS.

SHE ALLOWED THEM IN THE HOUSE.

SHE MADE VISITS TO AFRICAN AMERICANS.

SHE WAS A DEMOCRAT.

AND LATER IN LIFE, SHE WENT AROUND PLAINS SHOCKING HER NEIGHBORS BY SAYING GOOD THINGS ABOUT ABRAHAM LINCOLN, JUST TO BE PROVOCATIVE.

SO, JIMMY GREW UP WITH THIS CONTRARIAN MOTHER, AND IT GAVE HIM A STREAK OF INDEPENDENCE.

>> IF HE WAS SO MUCH OF A LIBERAL AND PROGRESSIVE, ESPECIALLY ON ISSUES OF RACE COMING FROM HIS MOTHER, HOW COME HE WASN'T INVOLVED IN THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT OF THE 60s?

>> HE WAS EXTREMELY CLEVER AND PRAGMATIC.

JUST IN THOSE EARLY YEARS, HE KEPT HIS HEAD DOWN.

HE COULD HAVE HAD A CHANCE, FOR INSTANCE, TO MEET MARTIN LUTHER KING JUNIOR, BUT HE NEVER DID.

HE QUIETLY WENT ABOUT HIS OWN BUSINESS, AND IN 1962, DECIDED SUDDENLY ON THE SPUR OF THE MOMENT TO RUN FOR A STATE SENATOR SEAT.

WON.

HE KEPT HIS HEAD DOWN EVEN THEN.

>> WHY DID HE RUN FOR STATE SENATE?

>> I THINK HE WAS BORED WITH HIS BUSINESS.

HE TURNED THE FAMILY PEANUT FARM AND WAREHOUSE, REALLY SORT OF A SMALL BUSINESS COMPANY SELLING FERTILIZER AND PEANUT SEEDS.

HE TURNED IT INTO QUITE A SUCCESS AND HE WAS BORED.

JIMMY CARTER WAS CERTAINLY ONE OF THE MOST INTELLIGENT, AND OBVIOUSLY ONE OF THE MOST DECENT MAN TO OCCUPY THE WHITE HOUSE.

HE WAS VERY INTELLIGENT, WELL READ.

>> WASN'T HE BOTH AMBITIOUS AND HAD A DRIVING RELIGIOUS FAITH?

DIDN'T THAT HELP HIM GET INTO PUBLIC LIFE?

>> THAT TOO IS A CONTRADICTION.

HE WAS EXTREMELY AMBITIOUS.

IN 1966, HE RAN FOR GOVERNOR AND LOST TO A SEGREGATIONIST, AN ARDENT SEGREGATIONIST NAMED LESTER MATTIS.

THAT LED TO SORT OF A CRISIS OF FAITH.

IT LED TO WHAT HE LATER DESCRIBED AS A BORN AGAIN EXPERIENCE, BUT THERE WAS A CONTRADICTION BETWEEN HIS AMBITION, AND HIS FAITH.

AS A SOUTHERN BAPTIST, YOU ARE TAUGHT THAT REALLY THE GREATEST SIN IS THAT OF PRIDE.

JIMMY CARTER HAD A LOT OF PRIDE.

HE ALWAYS KNEW HE WAS THE SMARTEST BOY IN HIS CLASS, SMARTEST GUY IN THE ROOM.

HE KNEW THAT THAT WAS A SIN.

HE RECONCILED IT BY MAKING THE ARGUMENT, BORROWING FROM A LIBERAL NORTHERN THEOLOGIAN, THE NOTION THAT THE WORLD IS FULL OF SIN AND NEEDS TO BE REFORMED, AND POLITICS IS NECESSARY.

SO, HE TOLD HIMSELF, I WILL DO WHATEVER IS NECESSARY TO GET ELECTED, AND THEN I WILL USE THAT POWER TO DO THE RIGHT THING.

>> BUT YOU SAID, HE WOULD DO WHATEVER HE COULD TO GET ELECTED.

I REMEMBER GROWING UP IN THE SOUTH, AND YOU TALK ABOUT JIMMY CARTER BEING HUMILIATED BY A LOSS FOR GOVERNOR TO LESTER MADDOX, THE SEGREGATIONIST.

WHEN THAT HAPPENED IN THE SOUTH, PEOPLE WENT ONE OF TWO WAYS.

GEORGE WALLACE, THAT HAPPENED TO HIM, AND HE SAID, I WILL NEVER BE, AND HE USED SOME SLURS , AND DECIDED TO GO AND BE A VERY SEGREGATIONIST.

JIMMY CARTER GOES THE OTHER WAY, SO DO A FEW OTHER PEOPLE.

WHAT CAUSES THAT FORT IN THE ROAD?

>> HE WAS DESPERATE TO GET ELECTED, TO BE ABLE TO HAVE ACCESS TO POWER.

WHEN HE NEXT RAN FOR GOVERNOR IN 1970 HE REALLY DID ENGAGE IN SOME DOG WHISTLES.

HE WOULD GO AND CAMPAIGN IN BLACK CHURCHES, BUT HE ALSO WENT TO A SMALL TOWN, SMALL TOWNS IN NORTHERN GEORGIA, DEFENDED THE RIGHT OF PEOPLE TO SEND THEIR KIDS TO PRIVATE, WHITE ACADEMIES.

THAT WAS A DOG WHISTLE.

HE WON THE ELECTION, AND THEN TURNED AROUND, HAVING ONE POWER ON HIS VERY FIRST DAY WHEN HE WAS INAUGURATED, HE TURNS AROUND AND PROCLAIMS THE TIME FOR RACIAL DISCRIMINATION IN THE SOUTH IS OVER.

PEOPLE WERE SHOCKED ON THE PLATFORM.

THEY FELT BETRAYED, SOME OF HIS CONSTITUENTS, BUT HE WENT ON TO DO THE SAME THING, I WOULD ARGUE , WHEN HE WON THE WHITE HOUSE.

HIS WHOLE APPROACH TO POLITICS INSIDE THE OVAL OFFICE WAS TO FIGURE OUT WHAT THE RIGHT THING TO DO TO EDUCATE HIMSELF AS INTELLIGENTLY AS HE COULD.

LOOK AT WHAT HE DID WITH THE MIDDLE EAST.

I THINK THIS IS A REALLY IMPORTANT POINT THAT IS NOT OFTEN MADE THAT, YOU KNOW, CAMP DAVID WAS THE SCENE OF HIS GREATEST TRIUMPH, HIS PERSONAL DIPLOMACY BROUGHT EGYPT AND ISRAEL TOGETHER.

YET, CARTER ALSO BELIEVED HE'D GOTTEN A WIDER PEACE SETTLEMENT AND AGREEMENT FROM ISRAEL BEGGING HIM TO GO ON AND COMMIT TO A FIVE-YEAR FREEZE ON THE SETTLEMENT, THE JEWISH SETTLEMENTS IN THE WEST BANK.

AND THEN, REAGAN TURNED AROUND AND RENEGED WITHIN DAYS, ACCORDING TO CARTER.

CARTER ALWAYS BELIEVED HE'D HAD A LARGER AGREEMENT.

THIS IS WHY FOR DECADES AFTERWARDS, DURING HIS PRESIDENCY, AND AFTERWARDS, HE VERY CONTROVERSY EARLY DID WHAT HE THOUGHT WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO AND SPOKE OUT AGAINST THE SETTLEMENTS, POINTING OUT THAT THERE WOULD BE AN OBSTACLE TWO STATE SOLUTION.

THEN, HE WENT A STEP FURTHER, NO ONE WAS LISTENING TO HIM, HE WROTE A BOOK IN 2006 CALLED, "PALESTINE PEACE NOT APARTHEID. "

BY USING THAT WORD, APARTHEID, HE KNEW HE WAS BEING PROVOCATIVE.

AND HE GOT A LOT OF CRITICISM.

PEOPLE RESIGNED FROM THE CARTER CENTER.

IT WAS VERY CONTROVERSIAL.

IT TOOK A LOT OF COURAGE TO DO THAT.

I WOULD ARGUE, LOOKING BACK ALL THESE MANY YEARS LATER A LOOK AT WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN THE MIDDLE EAST, LOOK AT WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO ISRAEL.

ISRAEL IS GOING DOWN A PATH THAT IS LEADING TOWARD ANNEXATION AND ESSENTIALLY AN APARTHEID -LIKE STATE.

AND JIMMY CARTER, YOU KNOW, PREDICTED THIS.

THAT IS A VERY TOUGH THING FOR HIM TO HAVE DONE, AND I THINK YOU CAN SEE HIM DOING-- TAKING SIMILAR STANDS ON ALL SORTS OF ISSUES, FROM RACE, TO CLIMATE CHANGE, TO THE VERY DIFFICULT DECISION HE MADE TO A POINT PAUL VOLCKER TO THE FED AT A TIME WHEN INFLATION WAS RAGING.

HE KNEW PAULA BOOKER PAUL VOLCKER WAS GOING TO CHECK OUT THE RATES AND MAKE IT VERY DIFFICULT FOR HIS REELECTION CAMPAIGN IN 1980, BUT CARTER DID IT.

HE IS AN EXTRAORDINARY POLITICIAN.

HE IS REALLY NOT A POLITICIAN.

HE IS SORT OF A SPIRITUAL LEADER WHO CAME TO APPLY HIS POLITICS TO OVAL OFFICE.

A VERY UNUSUAL PRESIDENCY.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT THAT SPIRITUAL QUALITY OF HIM.

EXPLAIN WHAT WE SOMETIMES CALL THE MALAISE SPEECH, EVEN THOUGH I DON'T THINK THAT WORD WAS USED IN IT.

IT READS MORE LIKE A SERMON THAN A SPEECH.

WAS HE THINKING HE WAS IN A PULPIT STATEMENT ABSOLUTELY.

THAT IS WHAT HE WAS THINKING.

IT IS AN EXTRAORDINARY SPEECH.

I URGE PEOPLE TO LOOK IT UP.

IT IS VERY UNUSUAL, VERY IMPRESSIONABLE TO READ IT TODAY.

IT IS TALKING ABOUT A CRISIS IN AMERICA, IN A SPIRITUAL SENSE.

HE WAS RAILING AGAINST WHAT HE CALLED THE CULTURE OF NARCISSISM , RAILING AGAINST THE NOTION THAT AMERICANS TOO OFTEN THOUGHT THEY COULD FIND HAPPINESS AND WELL-BEING IN SELF-INDULGENCE AND CONSUMPTION THIS IS NOT THE USUAL THING AN AMERICAN PRESIDENT WILL USUALLY TALK ABOUT.

WHAT HE WAS TRYING TO GET AT WAS, THE CONFLICT BETWEEN TWO ESSENTIAL PRINCIPLES IN AMERICAN LIFE, OUR COMMITMENT TO THE FREEDOM OF THE INDIVIDUAL , WHICH IS VERY POWERFUL IN AMERICA, HISTORICALLY, BUT ALSO, OUR COMMITMENT TO COMMUNITY.

CARTER ALWAYS BELIEVED, IN A VERY RELIGIOUS SENSE, YOU CANNOT HAVE PERSONAL FREEDOM WITHOUT COMMUNITY.

HE, I THINK, GOT THIS IN PART FROM HIS CHILDHOOD GROWING UP IN ARCHERY AND PLANES PLAINS, SMALL-TOWN SENSIBILITY.

HE THOUGHT THAT AMERICA IN THE 70s WAS DRIFTING AWAY FROM ITS COMMITMENT TO COMMUNITY.

AND THAT SPEECH WAS REALLY TOUGH , AND I WOULD ARGUE, PROPHETIC.

HE WAS OFTEN THOUGHT OF A PROFIT IN THE WILDERNESS, AGAIN, NOT MUCH OF A POLITICIAN.

HE IGNORED THE POLITICS.

THIS WAS NOT A POPULAR THING TO SAY, ALTHOUGH HE GOT A NICE BUMP IN THE POLLS FOR ABOUT 10 DAYS.

TODAY, IT IS ACTUALLY QUITE ASTONISHING, PARTICULARLY SINCE WE HAVE DONALD TRUMP, WHO SORT OF EMBODIES THE NOTION OF NARCISSISM.

DONALD TRUMP IS ABOUT TO WALK BACK INTO THE OVAL OFFICE, SO IT IS IRONY THAT NARCISSISM HAS TRIUMPHED.

JIMMY CARTER WOULD ARGUE THAT THIS IS SOMETHING TO REGRET.

>> YOU SAY, HE WAS THE MOST DECENT MAN TO BE IN THE OVAL OFFICE.

THERE WAS BOTH A DECENCY , AND A SENSE OF CHARACTER, IN SOME WAYS, A CHARACTER SINCE, ALMOST HOLIER THAN THOU, BUT HE WAS SO DEDICATED TO THAT IDEA THAT CHARACTER COUNTS, THAT YOU DON'T LIE.

COULD SOMEBODY LIKE THAT BE ELECTED NOW?

OR IS THAT SEEN AS A WEAKNESS THESE DAYS?

>> WELL, WE ARE ABOUT TO FIND OUT WITH THE NEXT FOUR YEARS, WITH DONALD TRUMP.

YOU KNOW, HISTORY WORKS WITH A PENDULUM.

MAYBE THE PENDULUM WILL SWING BACK AFTER HAVING A NARCISSIST, WHO REALLY DOES NOT CARE ABOUT THE FACTS VERY OFTEN.

JIMMY CARTER CAMPAIGNED IN 1976, FAMOUSLY SAYING, I WILL NEVER LIE TO YOU.

YOU KNOW, SKEPTICS WERE A LITTLE CYNICAL ABOUT THAT.

HIS OWN, PERSONAL LAWYER, CHARLIE COBLE, TURNED TO AN AID WHEN HE HEARD CARTER HAD MADE THIS A PART OF HIS STUMP SPEECH, I WILL NEVER LIE TO YOU.

COBLE TURNED AND SAID, THERE GOES THE LIAR VOTE.

[ LAUGHTER ] BUT CARTER, YOU KNOW, WAS A VERY DECENT MAN.

HE TRIED NOT TO LIE.

HE TRIED TO DO THE RIGHT THING, REGARDLESS OF THE POLITICAL CONSEQUENCES.

HE HAD NO SEX SCANDALS IN HIS LIFE, CERTAINLY NOT DURING THE PRESIDENCY.

THERE WAS NO FINANCIAL CORRUPTION, AND HE KEPT THE PEACE.

HE DID NOT SEND AMERICAN TROOPS INTO WAR.

IT IS AN EXTRAORDINARY RECORD, AND A PERSONAL ONE, AND HIS PERSONAL COMMITMENT TO TRYING TO DO THE RIGHT THING AND BEING DECENT.

I THINK IT IS SOMETHING PEOPLE WILL GRAVITATE TOWARD IN THE FUTURE.

HIS REPUTATION, HISTORICALLY, I THINK IS GOING TO RISE.

AND YOU KNOW, AMERICANS MAY SOMEDAY REALIZE THEY WOULD ACTUALLY LIKE TO HAVE IN THE OVAL OFFICE SOMEONE WHO RISES AT 5:30 IN THE MORNING, GETS INTO THE OVAL OFFICE BY 6:30, AND SPENDS 12 HOURS WORKING VERY HARD, TRYING TO READ 300 PAGES OF MEMOS EVERY DAY AND PAY ATTENTION TO THE DETAILS.

WE OUGHT TO VALUE A PRESIDENT WHO WORKS HARD, AND IS DECENT, AND NEVER LIES TO US.

>> KAI BIRD, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>>> LET'S BRING BACK HISTORIAN ABBAS MILANI NOW FOR MORE ON THE FOREIGN POLICY LEGACY.

SORRY, WE LOST YOU DUE TO A TECHNICAL SNAFU.

I WANTED TO ASK YOU THIS, YOU HAD STARTED BY SAYING, CARTER'S FOCUS ON HUMAN RIGHTS IS A PART OF WHAT THE SHAH HIS THRONE , WHICH IS KIND OF, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF PEOPLE WOULD BE SURPRISED TO HEAR YOU SAY THAT.

YOU WERE A POLITICAL PRISONER UNDER THE SHAH, CORRECT?

WHAT DO YOU THINK ?

YOU WERE IN JAIL WHEN CARTER CAME INTO OFFICE.

>> WHEN I WAS A POLITICAL PRISONER AND CARTER CAME TO OFFICE OVERNIGHT, OUR LIVES CHANGED, AND LIFE BECAME MUCH BETTER, TORTURE VIRTUALLY STOPPED OVERNIGHT IN IRAN.

POLITICAL PRISONERS USED TO CALL IT DUEMARCRACY.

FOR US INDIVIDUALLY, LIFE CHANGED PROFOUNDLY.

IN IRAN, LIFE CHANGED FOR THE BETTER, BUT IT BECAME CLEAR THAT THE CONTINUATION OF THAT POLICY, COINCIDING WITH AN ECONOMIC DOWNTURN, COINCIDING, BUT CARTER DID NOT KNOW, BUT SHAH'S ILLNESS, KING A PERFECT STORM, AND WOULD BRING THE SHAH DOWN .

AT THAT TIME, YOU CANNOT MAKE UP HIS MIND.

HE HAD THESE THREE DIFFERENT ADVICES HE WAS GETTING AND THAT CAUSED THE PROBLEM.

>> ARE YOU TELLING ME THOUGH THAT PERHAPS THE AMERICANS, AND MAYBE THE BRITISH AT THE TIME THOUGHT THE IRON DOLLARS WOULD BRING MORE DEMOCRACY AND HUMAN RIGHTS THEN THE SHAH DATE?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

THAT IS THE BIG LIE THAT I THINK WAS SOLD TO THE CARTER ADMINISTRATION.

CLEARLY LIED IN HIS NEGOTIATIONS .

HE WROTE A LETTER TO JIMMY CARTER IN JANUARY 1979, SAYING, WE WILL KEEP IRAN TOGETHER, WE WILL SELL OIL, KEEP THE SOVIETS OUT OF IRAN, JUST HELP US GET INTO POWER.

THERE IS NO, I THINK.

THE EVIDENCE SHOWS CARTER AND HIS ADMINISTRATION, NOT I THINK BRZEZINSKI, BUT A DOMINANT PART OF THE ADMINISTRATION, BUT THAT STORY THAT WOULD DELIVER SOME FORM OF ISLAMIC DEMOCRACY, AND THE FIRST PRIME MINISTER HE APPOINTED WAS VERY MUCH ALONG THAT PROMISE.

RENEGED ON HIS PROMISE TO THE IRANIAN PEOPLE AND I THINK HE CLEARLY RENEGED ON HIS AGREEMENTS WITH THE U.S.. >> YEAH, YEAH, YEAH.

AND YOU REFERRED TO BRZEZINSKI, CARTER'S NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR, PERHAPS MORE HARDLINES AND CLEAR EYED ABOUT WHAT WAS GOING ON.

I WANT TO QUICKLY ASK YOU ABOUT CARTER'S-- YOU MENTIONED, HE WAS SO INVOLVED WITH THE CAMP DAVID ACCORDS IN 1979, HE KIND OF TOOK HIS EYE OFF OF IRAN.

YET, THEY STAND AS A UNIQUE AND REVOLUTIONARY PIECE BUILT FOR THAT REGION.

AND NOTHING HAS MATCHED IT SINCE.

AND CARTER HIMSELF HAS BECOME INCREASINGLY IDENTIFIED WITH TRYING TO STAND UP FOR PALESTINIAN RIGHTS, TRYING TO OUT ISRAEL, WHEN HE THOUGHT THEY WERE BREAKING AMERICA'S POLICY OF NO SETTLEMENT AND THIS AND THAT.

THIS IS WHAT CARTER SAID ABOUT HIS COMPLICATED RELATIONSHIP WITH ISRAEL WHEN I ASKED HIM ABOUT IT IN 2007.

>> ISRAEL WILL NEVER HAVE PEACE, AS LONG AS THEY ARE CONFISCATING AND COLONIZING PALESTINIAN LAND.

>> Reporter: I SPOKE WITH FORMER PRESIDENT JIMMY CARTER, WHO HAS WRITTEN A CONTROVERSIAL BOOK THAT IS CRITICAL OF ISRAEL AND ITS SETTLEMENT POLICY.

>> YOU HAVE SAID THAT SETTLEMENTS ARE A REAL OBSTACLE TO PEACE.

>> THERE IS NO DOUBT.

ANY RATIONAL ANALYST'S MIND THAT THE SETTLEMENTS ARE THE OBSTACLES TO PEACE.

>> MANY PEOPLE SAY, ACTUALLY, IT IS PALESTINIAN SUICIDE BOMBERS THAT ARE THE MAJOR OBSTACLE TO PEACE.

>> THERE IS NO DOUBT ANY SORT OF ATTACK BY PALESTINIANS OR OTHERS, IS HORRIBLE, AND MUST BE CONDEMNED.

THE BASIC PROBLEM IS A SETTLEMENT AND LACK OF ACCOMMODATION BETWEEN ISRAEL AND PALESTINIANS, AND ISRAEL WITHDRAWING FROM PALESTINIAN LAND.

>> Reporter: FOR DECADES, THE U.S. HAS SAID IN THE OCCUPIED TERRITORIES ARE AN OPPORTUNITY FOR PEACE.

WHY NOT WITHHOLD AMERICA'S ABUNDANT FOREIGN AID TO PRESSURE ISRAEL?

I ASKED FORMER PRESIDENT JIMMY CARTER.

AMERICA GIVES ISRAEL $3 BILLION A YEAR, NO QUESTIONS ASKED, JUST ABOUT.

WHY DOESN'T IT SAY, NO MORE $3 BILLION?

>> THERE IS NO WAY THAT A MEMBER OF CONGRESS WOULD EVER VOTE FOR THAT AND HOPE TO BE REELECTED.

>> Reporter: SO, YOU KNOW, WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF CARTER'S POSITION ALL OF THESE YEARS LATER, PARTICULARLY NOW IN THE HORRENDOUS AFTERMATH OF OCTOBER 7th?

>> I THINK HIS JUDGMENT WAS RIGHT.

WITHOUT IT, PALESTINIANS STATE HAD UNDERSTANDABLE LIMITS , AND ACCEPTS ISRAEL.

THERE CANNOT BE PEACE IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

I THINK IN THAT SENSE, IT IS ONE OF HIS MOST IMPORTANT CONTRIBUTIONS.

IT IS VERY IRONIC THAT HIS MISTAKES, AND POLICIES IN IRAN HELPED BRING TO POWER THE IRANIAN REGIME THAT HAS BEEN FOR 44 YEARS, THE MOST SYSTEMATIC AND AFTER THE RIGHT WING IN ISRAEL, OTHER TWO STATE AND LEFT WING OF THE PALESTINIANS, WHO HAVE BOTH REJECTED THE RIGHT OF PALESTINIANS TO STAY.

THE IRANIAN REGIME HAS BEEN THE MODEL BEHIND THIS ARGUMENT.

CARTER CREATED THE POSSIBILITY FOR PEACE, BUT ALSO HELPED BRING A FORCE TO THE REGION THAT HAS BEEN UNDERMINING IT, ALONG WITH THE OTHER ACTORS THAT CARTER WAS REFERRING TO.

>> AND A VERY, VERY QUICK ANSWER TO THE QUESTION I WAS TRYING TO ASK YOU, BEFORE THE HOSTAGE CRISIS IN 1979, WAS THERE ANY WAY THAT AMERICA COULD HAVE HAD SOME TYPE OF CONTINUED POLITICAL RELATIONSHIP WITH IRAN UNDER THE?

>> THE CARTER ADMINISTRATION TRIED ITS BEST.

THE CARTER ADMINISTRATION TRIED TO NORMALIZE RELATIONS, THE CARTER ADMINISTRATION GAVE IRAN INTELLIGENCE ABOUT THE IMPENDING ATTACK BY IRAN , BUT HARMONY, AND RULING ELITE, WERE KEEN ON TURNING AGAINST THE U.S. AND I THINK CARTER COULD DO NOTHING ABOUT THAT TURN THAT WAS PROFOUNDLY IDEOLOGICAL.

>> PROFESSOR ABBAS MILANI, THANK YOU FOR YOUR REFLECTIONS IN HISTORY ON THIS SUBJECT .

>>> FINALLY TONIGHT, A QUICK LOOK AHEAD AT TOMORROW'S PROGRAM , WHERE I WILL BE SPEAKING WITH ONE OF THE WORLD'S GREATEST LIVING FILMMAKERS.

WE DISCUSSED HIS FIRST EVER FILM NOW IN ENGLISH CALLED, "THE ROOM NEXT DOOR."

IT STARS TWO POWERHOUSE ACTRESSES.

HOW HE APPROACHED THE DIFFICULT SUBJECT OF DEATH AND ASSISTED DYING WITH HIS SIGNATURE, VIBRANT STYLE.

THAT IS WHAT TOMORROW'S PROGRAM.

>>> THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.