>>> HELLO, EVERYONE.

WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY. "

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> WE ATTEST ONCE AGAIN TO THE INNER AND SPIRITUAL STRENGTH OF OUR NATION.

>> REMEMBERING JIMMY CARTER.

AS FUNERAL SERVICES BEGIN IN WASHINGTON, FORMER ADVISER STUART EIZENSTAT TELLS ME WHAT HE THINKS EVERYONE HAS WRONG ABOUT THE 39th PRESIDENT.

THEN -- "SING SING.

"THE DIRECTOR JOINS ME ON THE HIGHLY ACCLAIMED FILM.

THE TRUE STORY OF BRINGING THE ARTS TO PRISON.

> >> PLUS FOR ISIS, THEY ARE TRYING TO FIGURE OUT A WAY THEY CAN ELBOW THEMSELVES BACK INTO THE LIMELIGHT.

>> THE COUNTERTERRORISM EXPERT SPEAKS TO HARI SREENIVASAN ABOUT HOW TO STAY ONE STEP AHEAD OF EXTREMISTS.

> >> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

THE FILOMEN D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.

SETON J. MELVIN.

THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN.

COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, AND JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M IN NEW YORK SITTING IN.

THIS WEEK THE WORLD BIDS FAREWELL TO PRESIDENT JIMMY CARTER.

HE DIED ON DECEMBER 29th AT THE AGE OF 100.

TODAY HIS CASKET IS FLOWN FROM HIS HOME STATE OF GEORGIA TO WASHINGTON, D. C. WHERE HE WILL LIE IN STATE UNTIL THURSDAY'S NATIONAL FUNERAL SERVICE.

AS A ONE-TERM PRESIDENT BESET BY CRISES INCLUDING HIGH INFLATION AND THE IRANIAN HOSTAGE CRISIS, CARTER'S LEGACY FOR A LONG TIME SEEMED MIXED AT BEST.

BUT THROUGHOUT HIS LONG POST PRESIDENCY, HE DEVOTED HIMSELF TO PEACE MAKING, ERADICATING DISEASES AND PUBLIC SERVICE IN A WAY THAT GRADUALLY REFRAMED HIS EARLIER ACCOMPLISHMENTS.

AMBASSADOR STUART EIZENSTAT KNEW CARTER WELL, HAVING SERVED AS HIS CHIEF DOMESTIC POLICY ADVISER AND ARGUES HE WAS OUR MOST ACCOMPLISHED ONE-TERM MODERN PRESIDENT.

I WAS LOOKING BACK AT PRESIDENT CARTER'S INAUGURATION SPEECH FROM JANUARY 20th, 1977, WHERE WE SHOULD NOTE, A GIANT PEANUT-SHAPED BALLOON HOVERED OVER.

AND I WANT TO QUOTE SOMETHING THAT HE SAID IN HIS SPEECH.

THERE CAN BE NO NOBLER OR AMBITIOUS TASK FOR AMERICA TO UNDERTAKE ON THIS DAY OF A NEW BEGINNING THAN TO HELP SHAPE A JUST AND PEACEFUL WORLD THAT IS TRULY HUMANE.

OUR COMMITMENT TO THE HUMAN RIGHTS MUST BE ABSOLUTE.

OUR LAWS FAIR, OUR NATURAL BEAUTY PRESERVED.

THESE WEREN'T JUST ASPIRATIONAL WORDS.

THESE WERE CONVICTIONS THAT HE, THE MAN, THE PRESIDENT HELD, AND PURSUED, BOTH IN HIS PRESIDENCY AND IN THE MANY YEARS AFTER.

>> YES, THANK YOU.

SO HE HAD OBVIOUSLY A FANTASTIC, ABSOLUTELY UNEQUALLED POST PRESIDENCY.

BUT IT IS NOW TIME TO REDEEM HIS PRESIDENCY.

THAT'S WHAT I TRIED TO DO IN MY BOOK, PRESIDENT CARTER, THE WHITE HOUSE YEARS.

THE REASON I SAY THAT IS THAT HE REALLY HAD, THE MOST IMPACTFUL ONE-TERM PRESIDENCY IN MODERN AMERICAN HISTORY.

AND I SAY THAT FOR SEVERAL REASONS.

FIRST, IF YOU TAKE WHAT HE DID ABROAD, HE EMBEDDED, AS HE SUGGESTED IN HIS INAUGURAL ADDRESS, HE EMBEDDED HUMAN RIGHTS INTO AMERICAN FOREIGN POLICY.

HE WAS THE FIRST PRESIDENT TO DO THAT.

AND ALL SUCCEEDING PRESIDENTS ARE MEASURED BY THAT STANDARD.

WE STILL HAVE HUMAN RIGHTS REPORTS ISSUED EVERY YEAR AND EVERY REPUBLICAN OR DEMOCRATIC ADMINISTRATION FROM THE STATE DEPARTMENT LOOKING AT HOW COUNTRIES HAVE DONE ON HUMAN RIGHTS ISSUES.

THIS HAD PRACTICAL APPLICATION IN TWO WAYS.

THE FIRST WAS, IN LATIN AMERICA.

HE SAID AND MEANT THAT HUMAN RIGHTS WAS GOING TO BE A FLEW DIMENSION IN OUR RELATIONSHIP WITH THE MILITARY ORS IN LATIN AMERICA.

IN SOME CASES HE CUT OFF ARMS TO CHILE, ARGENTINA, BECAUSE OF THEIR HUMAN RIGHTS RECORDS.

AND THAT RELEASED THOUSANDS OF POLITICAL PRISONERS AND GOT ALL OF LATIN AMERICA, INCLUDING THOSE COUNTRIES, ON THE ROAD TO DEMOCRACIES WHICH THEY BECAME IN THE 1980s.

SECOND, HE APPLIED TO THE SOVIET UNION AS WELL, WHAT WE WOULD CALL SOFT POWER.

HE CHAMPIONED THE RIGHTS TO EMIGRATE AND DOUBLED THE AMOUNT OF SOVIET JEWISH IMMIGRATION.

HE CHAMPIONED DEMOCRACY IN EASTERN EUROPE AND WHAT WAS THEN COMMUNIST EAST BLOC.

HE WENT TO POLAND.

WE HAD A POPE WHO WAS POLISH.

AND THE COMBINATION OF THE TWO CREATED A WHOLE DIFFERENT ATMOSPHERE.

THAT WAS ON THE SOFT SIDE WITH HUMAN RIGHTS.

WHAT WAS UNIQUE ABOUT JIMMY CARTER'S FOREIGN POLICY IS THAT HE COMBINED IN WAYS THAT ARE SIMPLY NOT UNDERSTOOD THAT SOFT-POWERED HUMAN RIGHTS WITH THE HARD POWER OF REVERSING THE POST VIETNAM DECLINE IN DEFENSE SPENDING, DEFENSE SPENDING WENT UP AT A RATE OF 3% ANNUALLY A YEAR AND 5% AFTER AFGHANISTAN.

EVERY SINGLE WEAPONS SYSTEM THAT PRESIDENT REAGAN IMPLEMENTED, FOR WHICH HE'S GIVEN CREDIT FOR ENDING THE COLD WAR, AND HE DESERVES CREDIT FOR IMPLEMENTING THEM FOR SURE, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM.

THE MX MOBILE MISSILE, THE CRUISE MISSILE, THE STEALTH BOMBER, INTERMEDIATE WEAPONS IN EUROPE, EVERY ONE OF THOSE WAS BEGUN BY JIMMY CARTER.

EVEN HIS CRITICS FELT THAT HE TOOK A VERY TOUGH STAND AGAINST THE SOVIET INVASION OF AFGHANISTAN.

AND ALL OF THESE WAYS, AND PLUS, CHINA NORMALIZATION, THE PANAMA CANAL TREATY, ALL OF THESE IN CAMP DAVID WE HAVEN'T EVEN TALKED ABOUT, WERE REMARKABLE SUCCESSES FOR HIS PRESIDENCY.

>> HE ALSO INHERITED AND PRESIDED OVER A NUMBER OF CRISES.

SOME WERE HIS OWN FAULT, ONE WOULD ARGUE.

OTHERS HE INHERITED.

AND IN GENERAL, THE MALAISE OF THE COUNTRY STILL COMING OFF THE VIETNAM WAR.

HE HAD A BIG SUPPLY OF OIL CONCERN HERE IN THE UNITED STATES AS WELL.

AND THERE WAS REAL PUSHBACK INTO HOW HE INITIALLY DEALT WITH SOME OF THE DOMESTIC ISSUES, PARTICULARLY THE OIL ISSUE, ASKING THE AMERICAN PUBLIC TO DO THEIR PART TO CONSUME LESS.

TO TAKE NO UNNECESSARY TRIPS, TO USE CAR POOLS, PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION, OBEY THE SPEED LIMIT.

THE ONE THAT HAS BECOME MOST INFAMOUS, SETTING THERMOSTATS TO SAVE FUEL.

THESE WERE VERY UNPOPULAR WITH AMERICAN VOTERS AND IT ENDED UP COSTING HIM IN TERMS OF HIS POLL NUMBERS IN A WAY THAT HE WASN'T ALWAYS ABLE TO REDEEM HIMSELF FROM.

HOW WOULD YOU RATE HOW HE HANDLED THE ENERGY CRISIS HERE IN THE U. S. ?

>> WELL, THE IRONY IS THAT DESPITE THE LONG LINES FOR GASOLINE THAT OCCURRED AFTER THE IRANIAN REVOLUTION, HE LAID THE FOUNDATION FOR THE ENERGY SECURITY WE HAVE TODAY.

WHEN HE CAME INTO OFFICE, WE WERE IMPORTING 50% OF OUR OIL LARGELY FROM OPEC.

WE HAD ALREADY GONE THROUGH ONE EMBARGO IN 1973 UNDER PRESIDENT REAGAN --NIXON.

WHAT HE DID WITH THREE ENERGY BILLS OVER FOUR YEARS IS MAKE US WHAT WE ARE TODAY, AND THAT IS ENERGY SECURE.

HOW?

FIRST, HE DEREGULATED THE PRICE OF OIL AND NATURAL GAS, TOOK THE CAPS OFF THE PRICE.

THAT INCREASED PRODUCTION SO MUCH THAT WE'RE NOW THE NUMBER ONE PRODUCER OF CRUDE OIL AND NATURAL GAS IN THE WORLD.

SECOND, ON CONSERVATION, YOU MENTIONED SOME OF THE STEPS HE TOOK.

THERE WERE OTHER POSITIVE STEPS LIKE TAX INCENTIVES FOR INSULATION.

AND THIRD, HE REALLY INAUGURATED THE WHOLE NEW ERA OF RENEWABLE CLEAN ENERGY AT THE SAME TIME AS WE WERE INCREASING OIL AND GAS PRODUCTION.

AND HE DID THAT BY TAX CREDITS FOR WIND AND FOR SOLAR.

AND SYMBOLICALLY, AND I WAS THERE WHEN HE DID IT, HE PUT A SOLAR PANEL ON THE WHITE HOUSE ROOF TO SHOW THAT THIS WAS THE ENERGY OF THE FUTURE.

SO AS SO MUCH ELSE IN THE CARTER PRESIDENCY, WE REMEMBER THE GAS LINES, HIGH PRICES BECAUSE OF THE IRAN REVOLUTION.

HE PLANTED THE SEEDS THAT FLOWERED AND BENEFITTED THE COUNTRY LATER AND FUTURE PRESIDENTS LATER.

>> FEW PEOPLE KNEW AND WORKED AS CLOSELY WITH JIMMY CARTER THAN YOU.

YOU WORKED ON HIM WITH HIS GUBERNATORIAL CAMPAIGN IN 1970.

YOU HAD MORE THAN A 50-YEAR RELATIONSHIP WITH THE MAN, SO YOU KNEW HIM AS HE SAT AS GOVERNOR, AS PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, IN HIS POST PRESIDENCY AS WELL.

CAN YOU SHARE WITH US WHO HE WAS TO YOU AS A FRIEND, AS A BOSS?

AND SOME PERSONAL ANECDOTES FOR OUR VIEWERS.

>> YES, VERY MUCH.

HE WAS A STRICT DISCIPLINARIAN.

HE WORKED VERY, VERY HARD.

HE CAME IN EARLY, LEFT LATE.

EXPECTED US TO DO THE SAME THING.

HE WOULD OFTENTIMES ACTUALLY CIRCLE MISSPELLINGS, SPLIT INFIN I HAVE THES AND BAD GRAMMAR IN OUR MEMOS BECAUSE HE WANTED TO US LIVE UP TO THE LEVEL OF EXCELLENCE HE EXPECTED.

HE ALSO HAD A VERY WARM HEART.

LET ME GIVE YOU A COUPLE OF EXAMPLES.

HE'S THE FIRST PRESIDENT, AND I THINK STILL TO TODAY, THE ONLY PRESIDENT RECOGNIZING THAT WORKING IN THE WHITE HOUSE IS A 24/7 JOB.

IT KEEPS YOU AWAY FROM YOUR FAMILIES.

HE ALLOWED US TO TAKE OUR FAMILIES TO CAMP DAVID ON WEEKENDS.

WE REMEMBER GOING INTO HIS CABIN WITH HE AND ROSALYNN AND HAVE POPCORN WITH MY YOUNG KIDS.

HE ASKED MY SON JAY TO JOG WITH HIM.

WE PLAYED TENNIS TOGETHER.

WE PLAYED DOUBLES.

HE WAS WITH HIS MILITARY AIDE.

MY TEAM, WE WON THE FIRST SET.

HE SAID LET'S PLAY TWO OUT OF THREE.

WE WON THE SECOND SET.

HE SAID LET'S PLAY THREE OUT OF FIVE.

THE THIRD SET, AND IT WAS ONLY BECAUSE OF DARKNESS THAT WE STOPPED.

AND.

IN WAY, HE SHOWED HIS DETERMINATION.

THESE PERSONAL ANECDOTES MEANT SO MUCH TO US.

IT KEPT OUR FAMILY TOGETHER.

ALLOWING US TO COME INTO HIS CABIN, ALLOWING MY SON TO JOG WITH HIM WAS REALLY VERY SPECIAL.

AND THEN COMING BACK FULL CIRCLE FOR HIS 75th WEDDING ANNIVERSARY IN PLAINS.

ONLY REALLY A LITTLE OVER TWO YEARS AGO WAS SO REMARKABLY MOVING.

AND I'LL BE FRANK WITH YOU.

HE WAS IN A WHEELCHAIR AT THAT TIME.

AND I CAME UP TO SEE HIM.

AND HE SAID, STU, I LOVE YOU.

I WOULDN'T BE WHERE I WAS WITHOUT YOU.

AND I SAID MR. PRESIDENT, FOR SURE, I WOULDN'T BE WHERE I WAS WITHOUT YOU AND I LOVE YOU.

AND WE REALLY EMBRACED AND I KISSED HIM ON THE CHEEK.

SO WE HAD THAT KIND OF RELATIONSHIP GOING BACK 55 YEARS TO 1969, 1970.

AND IT'S SOMETHING THAT ENRICHED OUR LIVES.

ANOTHER INTERESTING ANECDOTE, COMING BACK TO HEAR HIM PREACH AT THE MARANATHA BAPTIST CHURCH.

I TOOK MY PARTNER, MY WIFE HAD DIED, WE HEARD HIM PREACH AT THE CHURCH.

THERE WERE A NUMBER OF INTERESTING THINGS ABOUT THAT.

NUMBER ONE, THE BIG CROSS, AND I'M JEWISH, BUT THE BIG CROSS IN THE CHURCH WAS MADE BY HIM.

HE WAS AN EXPERT WOOD WORKER.

INDEED, HE WAS A RENAISSANCE MAN, A PAINTER, A POET, AN AUTHOR, AN ENGINEER, A FARMER.

THAT CHURCH IS VERY MUCH HIS CHURCH.

WHAT HE DID WAS PEOPLE CAME UP STARTING AT 3:00 IN THE MORNING FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD, PEOPLE FROM HONG KONG, FROM CALIFORNIA, IN OUR COUNTRY, TO HEAR HIM PREACH AND GIVE A SERMON AT THE MARANATHA BAPTIST CHURCH.

WE WERE THERE AT THAT PARTICULAR TIME.

HE GAVE A SERMON ON THE BOOK OF RUTH.

THY PEOPLE WILL BE MY PEOPLE.

AND HE USED IT TO TALK ABOUT THE NEED TO TREAT OTHER PEOPLE THE WAY YOU WOULD WANT TO BE TREATED.

THAT WE SHOULDN'T LOOK AT THEM AS THE OTHER.

WE WERE ALL PART OF HUMANITY.

THEN HE SAID, PLEASE COME BACK TO THE HOUSE.

I WOULD LIKE TO HAVE YOU BACK AT THE HOUSE IN THE MOTORCADE.

THE ONLY DISAPPOINTING PART FOR MARION IN THE MOTORCADE, THERE ARE NO TRAFFIC LIGHTS.

NO NEED FOR BEEPING HORNS AND JOY STICKS TO STOP.

THE HOUSE HE WAS IN WAS THE SAME HOUSE IN 1961 THAT THEY FIRST MOVED INTO AND WHEN HE WAS RUNNING FOR GOVERNOR AND RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT, WE USED TO COME BACK TO.

IT HADN'T CHANGED AT ALL.

ROSALYNN APOLOGIZED FOR NOT MAKING LUNCH.

SHE SAID I'M SORRY.

JIMMY AND I WERE OUT LATE LAST NIGHT AND I DIDN'T HAVE TIME TO SHOP.

IMAGINE A FIRST LADY GOING OUT TO SHOP HERSELF.

HE DECIDED TO COME BACK TO PLAINS.

HE TOOK NO SPEAKING FEES.

>> FLEW COMMERCIAL.

HE FLEW COMMERCIAL PLANES.

I LOVE HEARING THESE PERSONAL STORIES.

THE FASCINATING UNIQUE RELATIONSHIP OVER THE YEARS.

YOU SPENT A LOT OF TIME TALKING ABOUT BOTH HIS ACCOMPLISHMENTS AND SOME FAILURES IN TERMS OF FOREIGN POLICY, THE IRAN HOSTAGE CRISIS BEING THE LATTER, AND THE CAMP DAVID ACCORDS BEING THE FORMER.

I'M WONDERING IF YOU EVER THOUGHT THE PANAMA CANAL AND HIS ROLE IN THE 1977 TREATY, HANDING IT OVER TO PANAMA, WOULD RESURFACE SO MANY YEARS LATER TO PRESENT DAY WHERE YOU HAVE A PRESIDENT-ELECT WHO JUST A FEW MOMENTS AGO SAID THAT DEAL IN HIS VIEW WAS ONE OF THE REASONS WHY JIMMY CARTER WAS A ONE-TERM PRESIDENT.

>> WELL, THE REASON HE WAS A ONE- TERM PRESIDENT WAS BECAUSE OF INFLATION AND THE HOSTAGE CRISIS.

NOT BECAUSE OF THE PANAMA CANAL.

BUT WHY DID HE DO THE PANAMA CANAL?

FOR TWO REASONS.

ONE, TYPICAL JIMMY CARTER, TOOK ON CONTROVERSIAL ISSUES AND ROSALYNN SAID TO HIM, JIMMY, WHY DON'T YOU WAIT TO DO PANAMA IN A SECOND TERM?

IT'S SO ELECTRIC.

SO CONTROVERSIAL.

AND HE SAID, WHAT IF THERE'S NO SECOND TERM?

THE SECOND REASON HE DID IT WAS BECAUSE THERE WAS SIGNIFICANT CONFLICT.

THE MILITARY, THE DEFENSE DEPARTMENT, WANTED HIM TO DO IT.

WE WERE REALLY AT RISK OF HAVING A REAL BATTLE OVER PANAMA.

THEY HAD GROWN RESTLESS AT HAVING THE CANAL TAKEN AWAY FROM THEM, AS THEY FELT, AND SO IT WAS A WAY OF AVOIDING CONFLICT, BUT ALSO SENDING A SIGNAL OF A NEW ERA IN LATIN-AMERICAN RELATIONS.

THAT TOGETHER WITH HUMAN RIGHTS AND DEMOCRACY REALLY TRANSFORMED OUR WHOLE RELATIONSHIP WITH LATIN AMERICA.

SO PANAMA WAS A PART OF IT.

AND EVERY PRESIDENT SINCE HAS BEEN VERY SATISFIED WE THE PANAMA CANAL TREATY.

WE HAVE THE RIGHT IN THE SECOND PANAMA CANAL TREATY.

IF ANYTHING INTERFERES, TO USE MILITARY FORCE.

SO WE'RE ALREADY PROTECTED.

>> I REALLY APPRECIATE YOU JOINING US TODAY.

>> THANK YOU.

>> NEXT, TO THE POWERFUL PRISON DRAMA THAT'S BAGGING NOMINATIONS LEFT AND RIGHT THIS AWARDS SEASON.

"SING SING" FOLLOWS THE PROGRAM WITH THE NEW YORK'S MAXIMUM SECURITY PRISON FOR MEN.

BASED ON A TRUE STORY, IT IS LED BY A CLAIMED TURN BY COLMAN DOMINGO.

IT IS GETTING MAJOR BUZZ AS WE GO THROUGH AWARDS SEASON.

COLMAN DOMINGO AND GREG QWEDAR JOINED ME EARLIER.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

THANK YOU FOR TAKING THE TIME TO TALK TO US ABOUT THIS BEAUTIFUL, POWERFUL FILM, "SING SING.

"CONGRATULATIONS TO YOU BOTH.

LET'S START WITH YOU, COLMAN, AND TALK ABOUT THE FACT THAT, A, THIS CAME TO YOU BETWEEN TWO PROJECTS YOU WERE WORKING.

ON YOU WERE REALLY PRESSURED IN THE MOMENT TO COMMIT TO THIS PROJECT.

I'M SURE YOU ARE GRATEFUL THAT YOU FINALLY DID.

YOU HAD 18 DAYS TO FILM IT.

IF YOU COULD JUST TELL US, THE IMPACT THIS FILM HAS HAD ON YOU AND IF YOU WERE TO DESCRIBE IT TO SOMEBODY IN TWO SENTENCES, WHAT IS THIS FILM ABOUT?

IT'S NOT YOUR TYPICAL PRISON FILM.

>> IT REALLY ISN'T.

IT IS ACTUALLY JUST A FILM ABOUT THESE HUMAN BEINGS WHO ARE INCARCERATED.

AND FINDING WAYS AND PATHS FORWARD BY USING ART.

ART HAS BEEN THIS GREAT, GREAT GIFT TO THEM AS THEY'VE BEEN ABLE TO PROCESS THEIR FEELINGS AND WORK ON PAST TRAUMAS AND MAKE NEW PATHS FORWARD.

SO THIS FILM, WHEN IT CAME TO ME, I LOVE THAT YOU SAID PRESSURED.

I DID FEEL A PRESSURE BUT WASN'T A PRESSURE AS IF IT WAS A BAD THING.

IT WAS A PRESSURE AS IF LIKE, THAT IT HAD TO HAPPEN RIGHT NOW.

AND I DIDN'T KNOW IF I HAVE THE TIME BUT WHEN MY CO- STAR CLARENCE MACKLIN SAW ME IN A ZOOM, HE SAID YEAH, WE CAN DO IT.

I WANT THAT POSSIBILITY THAT IT CAN BE DONE AS THESE TEACHERS AND PEOPLE WENT IN TO GIVE THEM THESE TOOLS.

THESE THEATER TOOLS.

THEY CAME IN WITH THE SAME SORT.

SPIRIT.

I FELT LIKE I NEED TO LEAD WITH THIS FILM.

IF I CAN SAY IN IT TWO SENTENCES, IT IS REALLY ABOUT THE POSSIBILITY OF WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU POUR ART AND GIVE PEOPLE ANOTHER PATHWAY FORWARD TO DO SOME REAL WORK ON HEALING.

IT IS A FILM THAT IS MADE WITH A LOT OF LOVE AND GRACE AND HOPE.

THAT'S WHAT I WOULD SAY.

>> I PORTRAY JOHN WHITFIELD BASED ON A VERY REAL-LIFE HUMAN BEING, A MAN WRONGFULLY ACCUSED OF A CRIME AND SPENT OVER 25 YEARS IN PRISON.

BASICALLY, HE WAS A FOUNDING MEMBER OF THE REHABILITATION THROUGH THE ARTS PROGRAM AT SING SING PRISON AND ALSO, HE WAS WHAT HE CALLS HIMSELF, A JAIL HOUSE LAWYER.

HE ADVOCATED FOR OTHERS, WHETHER IT WAS ABOUT GOOD FOOD OR MAKING SURE, HE WAS ADVOCATING FOR THEM AS THEY WERE COMING UP FOR THEIR PAROLE BOARD HEARINGS.

HE SORT OF HUNG ON TO HIS HUMANITY AND ART.

AND I DON'T KNOW.

TO HIS SPIRIT.

HE'S A REALLY GENUINE HUMAN BEING THAT I REALLY HAVE BEEN HAVING THE HONOR AND PRIVILEGE OF MY CAREER TO PORTRAY.

>> AND HIS HUMANITY SHINES THROUGHOUT THIS FILM UNTIL ULTIMATELY, SEE A BIT OF VULNERABILITY TOWARD THE END.

WE'LL GET TO THAT MOMENT IN A FEW MINUTES.

GREG, KUDOS TO YOU, BY THE WAY, FOR PUTTING THAT INCREDIBLE PRESSURE ON COLMAN FOR AGREEING TO TAKE THIS FILM ON.

IT IS A PRESSING STORY INDEED.

IT'S A PROJECT THAT YOU HAD BEEN WORKING ON FOR MANY YEARS.

YOU HAD BEEN WORKING ON A DOCUMENTARY ABOUT MAXIMUM SECURITY PRISONS AND YOU CAME ALONG THIS PROGRAM, RTA REHABILITATION, THROUGH THE ARTS.

THERE HAD BEEN AN ARTICLE WRITTEN ABOUT IT IN ESQUIRE MAGAZINE.

TALK TO US ABOUT WHAT THIS PROGRAM IS AND WHY YOU THOUGHT THIS COULD BE A GREAT INSPIRATION FOR THIS FILM.

>> REHABILITATION TO THE ARTS WAS FOUNDED IN 1996 AT SING SING PRISON, AS COLMAN MENTIONED.

ONE OF OUR MOST INFAMOUS PRISONS IN AMERICA.

THE TERM "THE BIG HOUSE" CAME FROM SING SING GOING UP THE RIVER IS GOING UP THE HUDSON TO SING SING.

SO IN A PLACE THAT IS SO SYNONYMOUS WITH PRISON, THAT A THEATER PROGRAM COULD EXIST INSIDE OF THOSE WALLS, THAT RAZOR WIRE, IT FELT LIKE AN ACT OF REBELLION IN A WAY.

AND I JUST REMEMBER, WE'VE BEEN WORKING ON THIS NOW FOR OVER EIGHT AND A HALF YEARS.

WHEN I FIRST CAME ACROSS THE STORY, IT WAS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT IN KANSAS.

I WAS WORKING ON A DOCUMENTARY IN A PRISON.

THAT WAS THE FIRST TIME FOR ME TO BE IN A PRISON WAS THAT DAY.

INTERESTED TO SEE IS THERE ANYONE ELSE DOING THINGS DIFFERENTLY INSIDE PRISONS.

I PUT IN IT GOOGLE.

I DISCOVERED THIS ESQUIRE MAGAZINE ARTICLE WHICH WAS ABOUT A 2005 PRODUCTION AT SING SING OF A TIME-TRAVELING MUSICAL COMEDY CALLED BREAKING THE MUMMY'S CODE.

IT WAS WRITTEN BY A VOLUNTEER THERE.

AND IN COOPERATION WITH MANY MEN INSIDE.

AND THERE WAS JUST THIS JOY IN THE PROCESS.

THE PLAY IS WILD.

AND WE EMBELLISH NOTHING IN THE MOVIE.

AND YET THAT PLAYFULNESS, THAT JOY AND THE PROCESS JUXTAPOSE IT.

WANTED TO FEEL THAT JOY IN MY OWN LIFE.

I REACHED OUT TO THE REAL-LIFE PERSON AND WE HAD THIS WONDERFUL CONVERSATION.

AT THE END OF THE CONVERSATION, HE WAS LIKE, IF YOU WANT TO UNDERSTAND THIS STORY, YOU NEED TO COME TO NEW YORK.

YOU NEED TO MEET SOME OF THE MEN WHO REALLY LIVED IT.

SO HE SET UP A BREAKFAST AT HIS APARTMENT IN NEW YORK AND MY CREATIVE PARTNER AND I CAME AND SAT AROUND THAT TABLE AND THE REAL PERSON WHOM COLMAN PORTRAYS WAS THERE THAT MORNING.

THERE WAS A SPECIAL WARMTH AND LIFE AND LOVE.

EVERYTHING THAT COLMAN IS DESCRIBING IS IN THE NET OF THE EXPERIENCE, WE FELT THAT BREAKFAST.

WE WERE LIKE, IF WE COULD JUST TRANSLATE THAT INTO A FILM, WE WOULD HAVE SOMETHING REALLY SPECIAL.

OKAY.

WE'LL MAKE IT LATER THIS YEAR.

AND EIGHT AND A HALF YEARS LATER, HERE WE ARE NOW.

>> WHAT'S SO FASCINATING IS JUST THE STATISTICS AND HOW INCREDIBLY YOU SEE THE RECIDIVISM RATE DROP FROM THOSE WHO PARTICIPATE.

FROM 3% TO 60% NATIONWIDE.

I WAS REALLY STRUCK BY AN INTERVIEW YOU GAVE WHEN YOU WERE PUTTING THIS IDEA INTO THE FORMAT OF A FILM.

THERE WAS ONE NAME THAT CAME TO YOUR MIND.

THAT WAS COLMAN'S.

WHY?

>> YOU KNOW, IT WAS KIND OF INTUITION.

WE HAD BEEN WORKING ON THE SCRIPT FOR OVER SIX YEARS AT THAT POINT AND TRIED A LOT OF ROADS UP THE MOUNTAIN.

HADN'T REALLY CLICKED ON THAT SPECIAL NEEDLE HOLE, THE WAY TO REALLY TELL THE STORY.

AND I HAD THIS LIGHT BULB MOMENT.

I WAS SITTING WITH MY NOTEBOOK AND I HAD THIS VISION OF HOW TO TELL THE STORY THROUGH THIS FRIENDSHIP.

THESE MEN THAT WE KNEW.

AND IN THAT MOMENT, THE STORY JUST KIND OF FELL OUT IN ABOUT TEN MINUTES IN MY NOTEBOOK.

AT THE BOTTOM, I WROTE COLMAN DOMINGUO IS DIVINE G. AND IT'S SOMETHING THAT I CAN'T QUITE EXPLAIN.

IT'S OBVIOUS THAT HE'S ONE OF OUR GREATEST ACTORS.

THERE IS SOMETHING ABOUT HIM WHERE, I DON'T KNOW THE BEST WAY TO DESCRIBE IT.

I THINK IT IS JUST LIGHT.

A LIGHT THAT SORT OF ALWAYS EMANATES.

HE CAN PLAY THE PHONE BOOK IN TERMS OF CHARACTERS.

BUT THERE IS ALWAYS THIS UNQUENCHABLE LIGHT SOURCE IN HIM THAT DRAWS YOU TO HIM.

AND THAT'S YOUR SPIRIT.

AND WHAT A GIFT TO HAVE BEEN ABLE TO TRAVEL DOWN THE ROAD AND WORK WITH HIM.

>> THAT SPIRIT, THAT VOICE.

THAT VOICE, COLMAN, MAN, OH, MAN.

WE TALK ABOUT HOW THIS IS NOT YOUR RUN OF THE MILL PRISON FILMS FOR MANY REASONS.

THERE IS NO FIGHTING, NO WEAPONS, BUT ALSO, THE OF THE TODAYING HERE OF FORMERLY MEMBERS ON THEIR OWN.

WE TALK ABOUT CLARENCE MACKLIN AND THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN YOUR CHARACTERS.

THIS IS A LIFE HE'S LIVED AS WELL.

AND I WANT TO PLAY FOR OUR VIEWERS IN EXCHANGE BETWEEN THE TWO OF YOU.

>> SOME OF THE THINGS HE WAS SAYING IN THE BOOK REALLY RESONATED WITH ME.

WHAT THE BROTHER SAID?

WHEN WE ARE BORN, WE CRY BECAUSE WE ARE BORN TO A STAGE OF FOOLS.

AND I SAID, WHOEVER WROTE THIS, MAN, HAD IT.

YOU KNOW?

>> SO KING LEAR FELL OFF A LIBRARY CART AND YOU READ A FEW PAGES.

>> YEAH.

[ BLEEP ] FUNNY, RIGHT?

>> HE'S NOT A PROFESSIONAL ACTOR AS WE NOTED.

HE IS AN ALUM OF THIS PROGRAM.

TALK TO US ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED BETWEEN THESE TWO CHARACTERS IN THIS EXCHANGE.

>> WELL, THE BEAUTIFUL THING, AND I LOVE THAT MOMENT SO WELL.

I THINK AS I'VE GOTTEN TO KNOW THEM AS INDIVIDUALS, THEY WERE TWO PEOPLE WHO PROBABLY DIDN'T CIRCLE EACH OTHER WHEN THEY WERE ON THE INSIDE.

BUT THERE WAS THIS PROGRAM, THIS NEED FOR ANOTHER PERFORMER.

APPARENTLY, HE HAD BEEN ON A LIST SO PEOPLE THOUGHT HE HAD A QUALITY.

HE IS PROBABLY UNTAPPED.

A READER, SOMEONE VERY INTERESTED IN HISTORY.

ALL THE THINGS THAT HAD THE MAKING OF SOMEONE WHO WOULD BE A THEATER PRACTITIONER.

HE JUST WASN'T GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY.

SO MY CHARACTER GIVES HIM THIS OPPORTUNITY.

AND IT'S AN INSTINCT.

I THINK THERE'S SOMETHING THAT HE'S USING IN THE WORLD.

HOW HE'S BEEN NAVIGATING ALL SYSTEMS.

GOOD OR BAD, THAT IS 3 AT RICKAL.

HE INVITES HIM INTO IT.

THEN YOU SEE THE WAY OUR FILM DOES.

THESE TWO PEOPLE WHO HAD NO IDEA THEY NEEDED EACH OTHER, OR WOULD LEARN FROM EACH OTHER, FORM THIS BOND AND THIS BROTHERHOOD AND THIS FRIENDSHIP OF NEED.

AND AT THE CENTER OF IT, IT BECOMES TWO GUYS WHO WOULD NEVER IMAGINE THEY WOULD EVER BE TENDER WITH ONE ANOTHER A BROTHERHOOD AND A FRIENDSHIP AND BE RESPONSIBLE TO EACH OTHER'S FEELINGS.

THAT'S A BEAUTIFUL JOURNEY THAT OUR FILM TAKES.

IT WAS TAKEN FROM THEIR TRUE FRIENDSHIP WHICH I THINK IS REALLY IMPACTFUL, AND IT SHOWS A DIFFERENT FEELING, A DIFFERENT VIEW.

THERE ARE PEOPLE DEPENDING ON EACH OTHER TO DO THE SOUL WORK.

>> AND THE INTERACTION WE SEE BETWEEN THESE TWO PEOPLE, COMPLETE OPPOSITE MEN COME TOGETHER AND FORM A BEAUTIFUL RELATIONSHIP AND BOND AND JUST WAIT UNTIL THE VERY END OF THE FILM.

I DON'T WANT TO GIVE TOO MUCH AWAY.

IT IS QUITE A TOUCHING MOMENT.

WHAT IS ALSO UNIQUE ABOUT THIS FILM IS THE FINANCIAL MODEL AND THE PAY STRUCTURE.

EVERYONE GETS PAID THE SAME RATE AND EVERYONE GET A CUT OF THE PROFITS.

EXPLAIN TO US WHY THIS WAS AN IMPORTANT MODEL FOR YOU TO TAKE AND IN YOUR VIEW, IS IT SCALEABLE IN THE INDUSTRY?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, WASN'T SOMETHING WE EVER THOUGHT WE WOULD BE TALKING ABOUT, THE FINANCIAL STRUCTURE ON AN INDEPENDENT OUTFIT SUCH AS THIS.

WE DID IT BECAUSE WE THOUGHT IT WAS NECESSARY AND THE RATE THING TO DO.

INDEPENDENT FILM, THERE IS A LOT OF SCORCHED EARTH.

A LOT OF LACK OF TRANSPARENCY.

THERE IS NOT MUCH TRUST.

WE FELT LIKE A MODEL THAT WOULD ESSENTIALLY PUT US ALL ON THE SAME PLAYING FIELD, THAT WE WOULD ALL WORK FROM OUR STAR HERE, COLMAN DOMINGO, WHO MADE GREAT SACRIFICE FOR THIS TO HAPPEN.

ALL THE WAY THROUGH OUR PRODUCTION, SOUND DESIGN, WE ALL WORKED FOR THAT SAME RATE.

WHAT IT SAYS IS THAT WE ALL HAVE THE SAME INTRINSIC VALUE.

THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IS TIME.

WHAT STARTS TO HAPPEN IS YOU MIGRATE SOMEONE FROM AN EMPLOYEE MINDSET TO A PARTNER MINDSET.

WITHIN THAT, IT SORT OF GENERATES AN IDEA THAT THE BEST IDEAS CAN WIN AND COME FORWARD.

YOU ACT DIFFERENTLY WHEN SOMETHING BELONGS TO YOU.

WHEN YOU TRULY OWN SOMETHING, YOU TAKE BETTER CARE OF IT.

AND I THINK, YES, IT ENABLED THIS MOVIE TO HAPPEN AND WE WERE ABLE TO MAKE THIS FOR A COST FAR LESS THAN A LOT OF INDEPENDENT FILMS SO WE COULD TELL A STORY THAT OUR INDUSTRY WOULD NOT NORMALLY FINANCE.

WITHIN IT, IT ALSO RAISED THE QUALITY OF THE WORK AND MADE IT A FILM THAT I THINK, YOU KNOW, THE RESULTS, YOU KNOW, I THINK ARE SHOWING BUT IT'S BECAUSE WE CARED AND TOOK CARE OF THE PROCESS.

>> BEFORE WE END, I DO WANT TO ASK YOU.

I TALK ABOUT HOW YOUR CHARACTER REALLY IS HOLDING EVERYONE ELSE UP.

YOU HAVE JUST THIS PERENNIAL SENSE OF OPTIMISM.

YOU ALSO REACH A BREAKING POINT AS WELL.

IT IS A REALLY POWERFUL THING.

ONE WOULD THINK PROMOTING ALL THAT YOU'VE DONE THROUGH THIS PROGRAM WOULD ELEVATE YOU TO FINALLY GETTING PAROLE AND FINALLY BEING FREED.

IT IN FACT RAISES OTHER QUESTIONS AMONG THOSE WHO ARE INTERVIEWING YOU.

LET'S PLAY THAT CLIP.

>> IT'S BEEN A PROGRAM THAT WAS ESTABLISHED TO HELP THE POPULATION WITH MANAGEMENT SKILLS AND IT'S TURNED INTO SOMETHING A BIT MORE, I DON'T KNOW, WONDERFUL BECAUSE IT HELPS PEOPLE GET MORE IN TOUCH WITH THEIR FEELINGS AND ABLE THE PROCESS AND ACTUALLY MOVE THROUGH AND CLEARLY GET SOME REHABILITATION.

>> SO ARE YOU ACTING AT ALL DURING THIS INTERVIEW?

>> SUCH A CRUSHING MOMENT.

YOU CAN SEE IT ALL IN YOUR FACE AND IN YOUR REACTION, COLMAN.

IF YOU CAN CONNECT THAT TO SOMETHING VERY POWERFUL THAT I HEARD YOU SAY.

YOU WERE PUT ON EARTH TO TELL COMPLEX STORIES ABOUT BLACK AND BROWN MEN.

CAN YOU WALK US THROUGH THAT MOMENT IN THE FILM?

>> WOW, YEAH, I CAN.

I KNOW WE LIVE IN A VERY CYNICAL WORLD.

EVEN THE MOST SINCERE IS QUESTIONED.

EVEN WHEN I'M WITH MY FILMMAKERS, I THOUGHT, ARE PEOPLE REALLY THAT SINCERE?

I'VE BEEN IN THIS INDUSTRY FOR OVER 34 YEARS AND TO MEET SOMEONE WHO SAYS, NO, WE WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT EVERYONE IS WELL TAKEN CARE OF AND THEY FOLLOW UP ON THAT IS UNIQUE.

SO I KNOW THAT EVEN IN THE MOMENT, I THOUGHT HERE'S SOMEONE ABSOLUTELY A PRODUCT OF THIS PROGRAM AND DOING GOOD WORK AND HOLDING ON TO THEIR HUMANITY IN SUCH A DANGEROUS SPACE.

AND HE'S TRYING TO BE AS SINCERE AS POSSIBLE.

YET THE SYSTEMS OF THE CONTAINERS THAT WE'RE IN AS BLACK AND BROWN MEN, THERE IS ALWAYS A LITTLE, THERE IS A BIT OF A SHEEN OR A VEIL, SOMETHING ALREADY IMPRESSED UPON US.

I KNOW THIS BY WALKING THROUGH THE WORLD EVERY SINGLE DAY OF MY LIFE.

I DO.

THAT PEOPLE PERCEIVE ME IN WHATEVER WAY, WHATEVER VACUUM, IDEA THAT THEY HAVE ABOUT ME.

AND EVERYTHING CAN FALL AWAY.

WHETHER IT IS WEARING MY STATUS, WEALTH, YOU NAME IT.

I'M PERCEIVED A CERTAIN WAY.

I DIDN'T HAVE TO GO SO FAR FROM TAPPING INTO THAT FEELING OF BEING SINCERE WITH WHO I AM IN THE WORLD AND TRYING TO BE AS CLEAR AND HONEST, BUT ALSO, WHAT SHARON WASHINGTON PORTRAYS.

SHE'S ONE OF MY DEAREST FRIENDS.

SHE PORTRAYS THE SYSTEMS IN THE WORLD WHO ARE GOING TO CONTINUE TO DECONSTRUCT IT IN DIFFERENT WAYS AND CHALLENGE IT.

ARE YOU REALLY WHO YOU SAY YOU ARE?

AND NOT JUST WHAT I THINK OF YOU?

SO FOR ME, THAT IS A VERY HONEST AND TOUCHING, AND I KNEW I WANTED TO CRAFT THAT IN THAT MOMENT.

SOMEONE WHO IS BEING ABSOLUTELY SINCERE AND ABSOLUTELY AN OPEN HEART, AND COMPLETE WITH THIS VERY CYNICAL WORLD, AND THAT IS THE PLIGHT OF MANY PEOPLE THAT I KNOW.

AND I DO UNDERSTAND THAT DEEPLY.

AND I'M ADVOCATING FOR THAT WITH MOST THINGS THAT I DO.

AND WHY I TELL COMPLEX PORTRAITS OF BLACK AND BROWN MEN.

I THINK THAT'S WHAT I CAN DO AS AN ARTIST.

I DON'T THINK I'M AN ACTIVIST BUT I KNOW IN MY WORK, THE WAY I SHOW COMPLEXITIES WITH WHO WE ARE, I CAN PLAY HEROES, VILLAINS, I WANT TO SHOW THEM AS BEING HUMAN AND HAVING ALL SORTS OF FEELINGS.

THAT'S VERY IMPORTANT TO ME.

>> WELL, YOU ACCOMPLISHED JUST THAT.

IT'S A VERY POIGNANT MOMENT.

I KNOW THAT YOU SAID FOR THIS FILM IN PARTICULAR, YOU WANTED IT TO BE FOLDED INTO THE ENSEMBLE AND NOT TO STAND OUT.

AS IN ALL YOUR WORK, YOU DO STAND OUT AND WHAT YOU ALLOWED TO HAPPEN IS FOR THAT ENTIRE ENSEMBLE TO STAND OUT WITH YOU.

SO THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR WORK.

FOR THIS FILM.

BOTH GREG AND COLMAN, I HOPE OUR AUDIENCE GOES TO SEE IT.

IT IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT AND BEAUTIFUL.

THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

> >> UP NEXT, ARE WE SEEING A RESURRECTION OF ISIS?

THAT'S WHAT OUR NEXT GUEST BELIEVES AFTER 2024 SAW A BAT OF IN ACTIVITIES BY THE TERRORIST GROUP.

NOW THE FBI HAS CONFIRMED THE SUSPECT IN THE NEW YEARS DAY ATTACK IN NEW ORLEANS WAS INSPIRED BY ISIS.

HOMELAND SECURITY AT THE COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS, BRUCE HOFFMAN JOINS HARI SREENIVASAN TO DISCUSS THE GROWING TERROR THREAT AND WHAT COULD BE DRIVING PEOPLE TOWARD EXTREMIST IDEAS.

>> THANKS.

BRUCE HOFFMAN, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

WE LOOK AT THE BACKGROUND OF THE FORMER SOLDIER WHO LAUNCHED THIS ATTACK IN NEW ORLEANS.

WE SEE THAT HE WAS GIVEN A MEDAL FOR SERVING IN THE GLOBAL WAR ON TERRORISM, AND HERE WE ARE, A COUPLE DAYS AGO, THE FBI IS CALLING HIM A TERRORIST.

HOW DOES THIS HAPPEN?

HOW DOES THIS ALMOST 180-DEGREE SWITCH HAPPEN?

>> WHAT WE KNOW IS HE WAS EXPERIENCING I THINK WHAT MIGHT BE CALLED IMMENSE FRUSTRATIONS.

HE HAD TWO FAILED MARRIAGES.

HE WAS ESTRANGED FROM HIS CHILDREN.

HE APPEARED TO BE IN AND OUT OF VARIOUS FINANCIAL VENTURES AND DIFFICULTIES.

HE WAS A CONVERT TO A DIFFERENT RELIGION.

IT MAY BE THAT HE FOUND AN ANSWER TO HIS LIFE IN ACHIEVING MORE IN HIS DEATH THAN HE COULD HAVE HAD HE LIVED.

THAT MAY BE THE SIMPLEST EXPLANATION OF WHAT DROVE HIM TO THIS PARTICULAR HEINOUS ACT OF VIOLENCE.

>> HOW DID THE PEOPLE AROUND HIM MISS THIS CONVERSION OR JUST THIS KIND OF CHANGE IN ATTITUDE?

I MEAN, NOW WE'RE DISCOVERING THAT THERE WERE SOCIAL MEDIA POSTS BEFORE THIS HAPPENED.

>> YES.

I DON'T KNOW HOW WIDELY CIRCULATED, OR HOW WIDELY KNOWN THE SOCIAL MEDIA POSTS WERE.

CLEARLY, MEMBERS OF HIS FAMILY HAD NOTED CHANGES, THAT HE HAD GROWN HIS BEARD LONG, FOR EXAMPLE, AND SEEMED TO BECOME MORE DEVOUT.

THEN HE CUT HIS BEARD.

STARTED DRESSING A BIT DIFFERENTLY.

THERE WAS NOTHING REALLY THAT WOULD HAVE TRIGGERED ANY ASSUMPTION THAT THIS RELATION OF THEIRS WAS GOING TO EMBARK ON A TERRORIST OPERATION THAT OBVIOUSLY REQUIRED CONSIDERABLE SURVEILLANCE WE KNOW NOW HE MADE TWO RECONNAISSANCE TRIPS TO NEW ORLEANS, INCLUDING ONE LAST OCTOBER WHERE HE DROVE AROUND BOURBON STREET WEARING THE KINDS OF GLASSES WHERE YOU CAN SURREPTITIOUSLY RECORD FOOTAGE.

NO ONE SEEMED TO NOTICE THAT THERE WAS ANYTHING REALLY OUT OF THE ORDINARY THAT MIGHT HAVE SUGGESTED A VIOLENT INTENT.

>> WE'VE SEEN THE NUMBER OF ISIS ATTACKS DECREASE OVER THE LONGER ARC, 2016, 2017.

THIS LAST YEAR WE SAW AN UPTICK IN DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE WORLD.

WHAT DO YOU THINK EXPLAINS THAT?

>> NO TERRORIST GROUP WILLINGLY GOES INTO IRRELEVANCE.

FOR THEM, THEIR STOCK AND TRADE IS VIOLENCE.

THAT'S HOW THEY HAVE THEIR CAUSES.

OBVIOUSLY, ISIS WAS KNOCKED OFF BALANCE BY THE DEFEAT OF THE CALIPHATE, THE DEFEAT OF ITS RULE OVER WESTERN IRAQ AND EASTERN SYRIA.

AND IT'S TAKEN TIME TO REGROUP AND REORGANIZE.

UNFORTUNATELY, IN 2024, WE SAW A SIGNIFICANT UPTICK IN INTERNATIONAL ISIS TERRORIST ACTIVITIES WHICH WAS IN ESSENCE A HARBINGER OF THIS IN THE UNITED STATES.

WE'VE HAD ONE ATTACK AND ONE VERY SERIOUS INCIDENT.

THAT WAS BACK IN OCTOBER WHEN AN INDIVIDUAL IN OKLAHOMA CITY WAS ARRESTED BY THE FBI PLOTTING TO ATTACK ON THE ELECTION DAY.

>> WHEN YOU THINK OF THIS, IT SEEMS LESS AS A CENTRAL ORGANIZATION THAT IS CALLING PEOPLE TO DO SPECIFIC THINGS.

IT'S ALMOST LIKE, IT'S ENABLING OTHERS TO HAVE THEIR OWN INSPIRATIONS.

>> IT'S BOTH.

THAT WAS WHAT MAKES ISIS SO DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND.

FOR THE AUTHORITIES, SO DIFFICULT TO TRACK.

ON THE ONE HAND, YOU HAVE HIGHLY ORGANIZED, EVEN ORCHESTRATED TERRORIST ATTACKS.

BUT THE ONE LAST MARCH, AT THE MUSIC HALL IN MOSCOW WHERE 130 WERE KILLED.

WE HAD THE CASE IN NEW ORLEANS WHERE AT LEAST AS OF THIS MOMENT, THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT THE PERPETRATOR HAD ANY CONTACT WITH ISIS OPERATIVES OR COMMANDERS.

AND THEREFORE, WHAT WE SEE IS ISIS PURSUING A PARALLEL TRACK OF ORCHESTRATING, ORGANIZING TERRORIST ATTACKS, BUT ALSO, ENCOURAGING, INSPIRING, MOTIVATING AND ANIMATING INDIVIDUALS COMPLETELY ON THEIR OWN TO CARRY OUT ATTACKS ON BEHALF OF ISIS.

>> HOW STRONG DO WE THINK ISIS IS TODAY?

I MEAN, I WONDER, ALSO, HOW GEOPOLITICAL INSTABILITY IN THE MIDDLE EAST FACTORS INTO THIS?

>> TERRORISM DOESN'T OCCUR IN A VACUUM.

IT REFLECTS THE TENSIONS IN SOCIETY, THE CONFLICTS IN OTHER CORNERS OF THE WORLD, THE POLITICAL POLARIZATION IN ANY ENTITY.

IN THIS SENSE, I THINK ISIS HAS BEEN STRUGGLING IN RECENT YEARS TO REASSERT ITSELF.

UNFORTUNATELY, 2024, TO AT LEAST A HALF DOZEN, IF NOT ATTACKS, THEN SERIOUS THREATS THAT WERE DERAILED.

AND THEN THE UPHEAVAL IN SYRIA.

ISIS'S GOAL WAS TO OVERTHROW THE REGIME OF BASHAR AL ASSAD.

THEY FAILED.

ANOTHER PERSON SUCCEEDED.

SO NOW FOR ISIS, THEY ARE TRYING TO FIGURE OUT A WAY THEY CAN ELBOW THEMSELVES BACK INTO THE LIMELIGHT.

THEY CAN STEAL SOME OF THAT THUNDER THAT WAS ACQUIRED FROM HAVING OVERTHROWN THE REGIME.

AND THEY BELIEVE THEY WILL REESTABLISH ITS PREEMINENCE AS THE BIGGEST TERRORIST THREAT IN THE GLOBE.

>> YOU'VE WRITTEN THAT ISISPIONEERS SOCIAL MEDIA.

EXPLAIN WHAT DO THEY DO AND WHAT ARE THEY STILL DOING WELL?

>> ISIS WAS I THINK THE PREEMINENT PINEER IN THE USE OF SOCIAL MEDIA TO RADICALIZE AND RECRUIT TERRORISTS.

THE PROOF IS IN THE FACT THAT THEY RECRUITED ON A GLOBAL BASIS 40,000 FOREIGN FIGHTERS FROM AT LEAST 120 DIFFERENT COUNTRIES THAT CAME TO THE CALIPHATE.

AND BACK ABOUT A DECADE AGO, THEY DID THIS BY USING THE KINDS OF SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS THAT WERE JUST BECOMING IN VOGUE.

THEY WERE USING WHAT WAS THEN CALLED TWITTER, FACEBOOK, INSTAGRAM, AND SO ON.

THEY USED THESE AS VERY EFFECTIVE TOOLS TO REACH A WORLDWIDE AUDIENCE VERY IMMEDIATELY IN REAL-TIME AT VERY REAL COSTS AND THEY ENGAGED WHAT WE MIGHT CALL NARROW CASTING.

BROADCASTING IS WHEN YOU PUT SOMETHING ON A PLATFORM AND YOU HOPE SOMEONE WATCHES IT.

NARROW CASTING IS THEY SCULPTED THEIR MESSAGES ON SOCIAL MEDIA TO APPEAL TO SPECIFIC DEMOGRAPHICS IN PARTICULAR COUNTRIES.

THAT'S WHY THEY SUCCEEDED IN CREATING THE FIRST TRULY GLOBAL TERRORIST ORGANIZATION.

>> DO YOU THINK THAT WHAT HAS BEEN HAPPENING ON SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS, AT LEAST IN TERMS OF THEIR OWN ABILITY TO POLICE, THEIR OWN INTEREST IN POLICING CONTENT THAT IS ON THE PLATFORM, THAT HAS BEEN DECLINING, AT LEAST IN THE PAST COUPLE YEARS.

CERTAINLY IN THE CASE OF TWITTER.

BUT I WONDER, DOES THAT ACCELERATE WHAT IS HAPPENING?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

I THINK THAT THE UNEVEN TRACK RECORD OF SOCIAL MEDIA COMPANIES IN MONITORING AND POLICING THE CONTENT ON THEIR PLATFORMS, WHICH AT TIMES HAS BEEN BETTER, AT OTHER TIMES WORSE.

TERRORISTS CLEARLY TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE LAPSES.

CLEARLY TRY TO IDENTIFY WINDOWS OF OPPORTUNITY WHEN THEY CAN PROPAGATE THEIR MESSAGES ON A WIDER SCALE.

AT A TIME WHEN DOLLARS AND SCENTS ARE THE BOTTOM LINE OF WHAT IS PROFITABLE BUSINESSES, THE TECH COMPANIES AREN'T WILLING TO INVEST THE TIME AND THE PERSONNEL ACQUIRED TO REALLY TACKLE WHAT IS A VERY LARGE PROBLEM.

IT'S NOT A SMALL PROBLEM.

THAT DOESN'T MEAN IT COULDN'T BE MORE EFFECTIVELY ADDRESSED THAN IT HAS BEEN.

>> WE HAVE ANOTHER ATTACK THAT HAPPENED ON NEW YEARS DAY.

THIS WAS A TRAGEDY IN LAS VEGAS WITH THE CYBER TRUCK THAT EXPLODED.

WHAT DO WE KNOW WHETHER OR NOT THERE IS A CONNECTION BETWEEN THESE TWO INDIVIDUALS, BETWEEN THESE TWO ATTACKS HAPPENING REALLY WITHIN HOURS OF EACH OTHER, BOTH USING ELECTRIC VEHICLES, RENTED ON THE SAME CAR-SHARING PLATFORM.

IT SEEMS LIKE A LOT OF THINGS TO BE A COINCIDENCE.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

AND THE COINCIDENCES GO FURTHER.

BOTH THESE INDIVIDUALS SERVED AT THE SAME TIME AT FORT LIBERTY, THEN CALLED FORT BRAGG.

BOTH DEPLOYED TO AFGHANISTAN AT THE SAME TIME.

OF COURSE, THE U. S. ARMY IS A HUGE ENTERPRISE.

IT'S NOT AT ALL LIKELY THAT THEY MAY HAVE CROSSED PATHS.

ONE WAS IN SPECIAL OPERATIONS UNIT, A HIGHLY DECORATED COMBAT VETERAN.

THAT'S SERGEANT LEVELSBERGER FROM LAS VEGAS.

JABBAR WAS IN I. T. IN THE ARMY.

THEY MAY POSSIBLY HAVE CROSSED PATHS.

THE ONLY CONNECTION I CAN PERHAPS SEE IS THE LAS VEGAS PROBABLY BROUGHT FORWARD, GO THAT IN OTHER WORDS, THAT ATTACK WAS PRECIPITOUSLY STAGED TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF ALL THE ATTENTION BEING SHOWERED ON THE INCIDENTS IN NEW ORLEANS, AND IT WAS THE ASSUMPTION OF, I BELIEVE, SERGEANT LEVELSBERGER, THAT HE HAD TO MOVE HIS ATTACK FORWARD TO GET THAT ATTENTION.

THAT MAY EXPLAIN WHY THE GASOLINE, THE FIREWORKS IN THE CYBER TRUCK DIDN'T CREATE A LARGER EXPLOSION.

>> WHAT ARE SOME OF THE FACTORS THAT WE SHOULD BE WATCHING FOR NOW?

INTERESTING THAT THERE ARE THESE SORT OF PUBLIC EVENTS AND OPPORTUNITIES THAT WILL BE HAPPENING, WHETHER IT IS THE SUPER BOWL, THE INAUGURATION.

>> THAT'S EXACTLY WHY WHAT WE'VE SEEN OVER THE YEARS IS A TERRORIST GROUP LIKE ISIS IN PARTICULAR, IT'S NOT ALL OF THEM, DELIBERATELY TARGETING CELEBRITY EVENTS.

LARGE GROUPS OF PEOPLE COMING OUT TO CELEBRATE A NATIONAL HOLIDAY, A CONCERT, A SPORTING EVENT.

WE SAW THIS IN NICE ALMOST A DECADE AGO IN 2016 WHEN ON BASTILLE DAY, A TRUCK RAN DOWN THE PROMENADE IN NICE WEST SAW IT IN 2015 WHEN TERRORISTS ATTACKED A CONCERT BY A HEAVY METAL BAND BUT SIMULTANEOUSLY ATTACKED A STADIUM WHERE A MAJOR SOCCER MATCH WAS GOING ON.

WE SAW AN ATTACK ON THE ARIANNA GRANDE CONCERT IN 2017 IN ENGLAND, THE TAYLOR SWIFT CONCERT THIS LAST AUGUST HAD TO BE CANCEL IN THE VIENNA, AND NOW WE HAVE BOURBON STREET IN NEW ORLEANS AFTER TIMES SQUARE.

ONE OF THE MOST ICONIC PARTY-GOING PLACES IN THE UNITED STATES.

LAS VEGAS AS WELL.

CERTAINLY PLACES PEOPLE FLOCK TO.

TERRORISTS ARE DELIBERATELY TARGETING VENUES WITH LARGE GATHERINGS OF PERSONS TO INFLICT THE MAXIMUM CASUALTIES.

OF COURSE, THIS IS GOING TO RESULT IN A RECONSIDERATION OF THE SECURITY MEASURES AT ALL BIG EVENTS AND APPROPRIATE MEASURES WILL BE TAKEN TO ENSURE THOSE WHO ATTEND THAT THEY WILL FEEL SAFE AND NOT STAY AT HOME.

>> IT SEEMS THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS HAS PLACED AN EMPHASIS ON DOMESTIC HOME-GROWN TERRORISM, RIGHT?

AND I'M WONDERING, DO WE HAVE THE CAPACITY TO PROTECT, YOU KNOW, OUR CITIZENS FROM BOTH THE ENEMIES ABROAD AND FROM WITHIN?

>> IN RECENT YEARS, ESPECIALLY GIVEN THE DEFEAT OF ISIS'S CALIPHATE IN IRAQ, THE KILLING OF BIN LADEN'S SUCCESSOR OF AL QAEDA, THE KILLING OF THE FOUNDER AND LEADER OF ISIS AND SO ON, HAS BRED A SENSE OF COMPLACENCY.

THAT TERRORISM WAS VERY MUCH IN OUR REAR VIEW MIRROR.

IF WE HAD TO FOCUS ON ANY ASPECT OF TERRORISM, IT WAS FROM HOME-GROWN, WHETHER IT WAS VIOLENT LEFT- WING OR VIOLENT RIGHT-WING IN THE UNITED STATES.

WE KIND OF FORGOT ABOUT THE THREAT FROM OVERSEAS.

WHAT WE'RE LEARNING NOW, ESPECIALLY IN THE AFTERMATH OF THE TRAGEDY IN NEW ORLEANS, WE HAVE TO HAVE SECURITY INTELLIGENCE TO COVER THE WATER FRONT.

FROM NATION STATES, COMPETITORS LIKE CHINA AND RUSSIA, ROGUE STATES LIKE IRAN AND NORTH KOREA, BUT ALSO AGAINST TERRORIST ENEMIES BOTH FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC.

>> HOW DO WE FIGURE OUT, LOOK, THIS IS ONE OF THOSE DIFFICULT CONVERSATIONS THAT MEMBERS OF CONGRESS TRY TO HAVE.

WHERE SHOULD WE FOCUS?

SHOULD WE BE MORE CONCERNED ABOUT ATTACKS FROM OUTSIDE OR INSIDE?

>> I THINK UNFORTUNATELY, WE HAVE TO BE CONCERNED ABOUT ATTACKS FROM BOTH.

UNTIL SEPTEMBER 11, 2001, THE SINGLE MOST LETHAL ATTACK IN THE UNITED STATES WAS PERPETRATED BY AN AMERICAN KILLING FELLOW AMERICANS.

THAT WAS THE BOMBING OF THE FEDERAL OFFICE BUILDING IN OKLAHOMA CITY THAT KILLED 168 PERSONS.

VERY SIMILAR TO THE NEW ORLEANS ATTACK.

TIMOTHY McVAY WAS AN ARMY VETERAN AS WELL.

HE WAS OPERATING WITH ONE OR TWO OTHER CONFEDERATES WHO WERE FORMER ARMY BUDDIES BUT WASN'T PART OF ANY TERROR ORGANIZATION.

WASN'T FOLLOWING ANYONE'S ORDERS BUT TOOK THIS UPON HIMSELF.

I THINK WE HAVE TO BE VIGILANT TO COUNTER THE ENTIRE RANGE OF THREATS THAT WE FACE.

AND ALSO, HAVE THE PHYSICAL MEASURES IN PLACE TO MAKE IT MUCH MORE DIFFICULT FOR TERRORISTS TO ATTACK.

AS YOU KNOW, THERE'S BEEN TREMENDOUS DISCUSSION ABOUT THE BOLLARDS ISSUE, THE WEDGES THAT WOULD HAVE MADE IT FAR MORE DIFFICULT FOR THAT VEHICLE TO JUMP UP ON THE SIDEWALK AND MOW DOWN THE PEDESTRIANS THERE.

THAT WAS CLEARLY A LAPSE THAT THERE WERE POLICE CARS BLOCKING OFF BOURBON STREET BECAUSE THE BOLLARDS DIDN'T WORK.

BUT NO ONE IMAGINED THAT AN ASSAILANT WOULD JUMP UP ON T HE CURB WITH A VEHICLE AND MOW PEOPLE DOWN.

BUT THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED ON THE PROMENADE IN 2017.

WE HAVE TO LEARN FROM PREVIOUS TERRORIST TRAGEDIES AND MAKE SURE THE PHYSICAL MEASURES IN PLACE ARE BOTH STATE-OF-THE- ART, IN FACT, WORKING, AND INDEED, ARE ANTICIPATING A VARIETY OF KINDS OF ATTACKS.

>> WHAT OTHER KINDS OF IMPROVEMENTS HAVE HAPPENED WHERE WE HAVE, I GUESS, BETTER RESOLUTION ON A CRIME?

UNFORTUNATELY, NOT BEFORE IT'S HAPPENING, DURING THE CRIME, BUT AFTERWARDS?

>> CERTAINLY DEVELOPMENTS OF ART IF I RECALL INTELLIGENCE, ASSISTING THE INTELLIGENCE COMMUNITY, IN SIFTING THROUGH MATERIAL IN A FAR FASTER RATE USING ALGORITHMS THEY MIGHT HAVE IN THE PAST.

CERTAINLY THERE ARE TREMENDOUS ADVANTAGES IN PROCESSING AND ANALYZING DATA AND OBTAINING THE DATA THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN COMPLETELY UNIMAGINABLE FIVE OR SIX YEARS AGO.

I WORRY THAT WE'RE BEHIND THE CURVE.

THE BIGGEST THREAT, ONE THAT I DON'T BELIEVE WE HAVE AN EFFECTIVE ANSWER TO, WHAT ARE CALLED UAS, UNMANNED AERIAL DRONES IN ESSENCE.

UNMANNED VEHICLES.

DRONES WHICH HAVE BEEN USED ON BATTLEFIELDS.

AS WE SAW IN 2023 IN ISRAEL WERE USED TO FACILITATE THE ATTACK FROM GAZA, AND WHICH WE'VE SEEN DRONES BEING USED FOR SURVEILLANCE PURPOSES IN THE UNITED STATES NOW ON NUMEROUS OCCASIONS, INCLUDING THE UNEXPLAINED DEPLOYMENT OF DRONES IN NEW JERSEY JUST LAST MONTH.

AND I'M NOT ENTIRELY SURE THAT OUR DEFENSEIS AGAINST ATTACKS USING THAT TYPE OF WEAPON ARE AS ROBUST AS THEY NEED TO BE.

UNFORTUNATELY, THE HISTORY OF RESPONDING TO TERRORISM IS CLOSING THE BARN DOOR AFTER THE HORSE HAS ALREADY GOTTEN OUT.

THIS IS ONE EXAMPLE OF WHERE WE CAN GET AHEAD OF A THREAT THAT HAS YET TO MATERIALIZE.

>> HAS THE MILITARY BEEN DOING ENOUGH?

OR HAVE THERE BEEN PROGRAMS THAT THE MILITARY HAS ENGAGED IN, GIVEN THAT WE'VE HAD SO MANY INCIDENTS OF VETERANS GOING THROUGH MENTAL ANGUISH OF ALL SORTS?

HOW DOES SUCH AN ENORMOUS FORCE WRAP ITS HANDS AROUND THE PEOPLE THAT ARE STRUGGLING WHO MIGHT STILL BE ACTIVE OR WHO MIGHT BE RETIRED?

WHAT DO WE DO?

>> THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION ACTUALLY HAD A VERY AGGRESSIVE PROGRAM.

A TASK FORCE IN THE PENTAGON THAT LOOKED AT PRECISELY THIS ISSUE AND WORKED VERY CLOSELY WITH THE DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS.

SO THIS PROBLEM, AND THIS PROCLIVITY AMONGST THE SMALL NUMBERS, SMALL PERCENT OF VETERANS TO TAKE TO VIOLENCE FOR WHATEVER REASON HAS BEEN RECOGNIZED AND HAS BEEN UNDERSTOOD.

THE QUESTION IS ALWAYS, HOW MUCH IS ENOUGH?

HOW MUCH MORE NEEDS TO BE DONE GIVEN THAT WE ARE AWARE OF THIS PROBLEM TO BRING THESE KINDS OF SERVICES TO OUR VETERANS?

CERTAINLY THE BOOK THAT MYSELF AND MY CO-AUTHOR WROTE, GOD, GUNS, AND SEDITION, WE FOUND A HIGH PERCENTAGE OF FORMER VETERANS WHO WERE BECOMING INCREASINGLY POLITICALLY ALIENATED, FELT DISENFRANCHISED FROM THE POLITICAL SYSTEM AND INCREASINGLY SAW VIOLENCE AS A SOLUTION, AND PART OF ADDRESSING THAT PROCLIVITY, I THINK, WAS RECOGNIZED IN THE CREATION OF THIS TASK FORCE AT THE PENTAGON WHO WORKED WITH THE DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS TO ADDRESS THIS PROBLEM.

>> BRUCE HOFFMAN, HOMELAND SECURITY AT THE COUNCIL FOR FOREIGN RELATIONS, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> YOU'RE VERY WELCOME.

> >> AND FINALLY, WE WANT TO GIVE THE LAST WORD TO NEW ORLEANS.

A CITY DEVASTATED BY THAT NEW YEARS DAY ATTACK.

THE PRESIDENT AND FIRST LADY VISITED MONDAY TO PAY THEIR RESPECTS.

WHILE THE CITY IS SHOWING ITS RESILIENCE WITH ITS OWN SIGNATURE STYLE, KICKING OFF ITS CARNIVAL SEASON WITH HUNDREDS OF FEARLESS PARTICIPANT, TAKING TO THE STREETS OF THE FRENCH QUARTER FOR THE ANNUAL JOAN OF ARC PARADE.

A VIOLENT MOMENT OF HOPE FOR A CITY THAT IS IN MOURNING.

AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP ON THE SHOW EACH NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER.

JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.