(dramatic music) - Hello everyone, and welcome to Amanpour and Company.

Here's what's coming up.

- Music is not dead in Afghanistan right now, even though the Taliban's back in charge.

- John Legend shines his light on the music of Afghanistan.

The Grammy winner remembers Afghan star Kabul's version of American Idol.

Then.

- The night country, it takes us one by one.

- This isn't gonna be good.

- A murder mystery set in darkness and ice, my conversation with true detective stars, Jodie Foster and Kali Reis.

Plus.

- This one journalist asked me, he said, "Do you think your opera's gonna inspire young people to sing opera?"

And I'm like, "Bro, man, people of color have been singing opera for generations."

- At the Met, I meet Terrence Blanchard, the first black composer to bring a piece to that stage in its 138 years.

(upbeat music) - "Amanpour and Company" is made possible by the Anderson Family Endowment, Jim Attwood and Leslie Williams, Candace King Weir, the Sylvia A. and Simon B. Poyta Programming Endowment to Fight Anti-Semitism, the Family Foundation of Leila and Mickey Strauss, Mark J. Blechner, the Filomen M. D'Agostino Foundation, Seton J. Melvin, the Peter G. Peterson and Joan Gantz Cooney Fund, Charles Rosenblum, Koo and Patricia Yuen , Committed to Bridging Cultural Differences in Our Communities, Barbara Hope Zuckerberg, Jeffrey Katz and Beth Rogers, and by contributions to your PBS station from viewers like you.

Thank you.

- Welcome to the program, everyone.

I'm Christiane Amanpour in London.

And as 2024 comes to an end, we're taking a look back at some of our favorite interviews.

And we start with Afghanistan, where over the last year, the Taliban's crackdown on women's rights has only become more extreme, like even banning the sound of their voices in public.

Since the US pullout three years ago, they've even suppressed the joy of music, a far cry from the early 2000s when the Taliban was driven out and a TV talent show gripped the nation.

It was Afghan Star, Kabul's equivalent of American Idol.

Superstar John Legend is making it the focus of his new podcast.

And I saw it up close myself in 2009.

(upbeat music) Eight years ago, when the Taliban ruled Afghanistan, what this young woman is doing might have cost her her life.

(singing in foreign language) But now she's one of the top contenders on the country's most popular TV show.

(singing in foreign language) (upbeat music) Are you surprised that you can actually sing?

You're a woman and you can sing pop rock here in Afghanistan?

(speaking in foreign language) I'm happy things have changed for the better and that a woman like me can finally perform.

(upbeat music) Afghan Star is this country's version of American Idol.

It's a mad fusion of traditional Afghan culture and Western style pop.

Backstage, I watched the procession of talent, drummers, dancers, acrobats, child jugglers.

(singing in foreign language) The audience and the country loved it.

The show's producers say 80% of TV viewers tuned in and cast their votes by mobile phone.

John Legend, of course, is no stranger to the TV talent show format.

He's been a coach on the popular American program, The Voice, and he is one of the world's few EGOT winners, having brought home an Emmy, a Grammy, an Oscar, and a Tony Award.

He told me why he was drawn to this Afghan project.

John Legend, welcome to our program.

- Great to see you, Christiane.

- Listen, we are really pleased to be doing this with you because it's amazing that you've decided to take on, in a new audio series, something that happened in Afghanistan and I really want to know why.

What was it about Afghan Star that moved you to explain it and rekindle it in your podcast?

- Well, I think it's just a beautiful story of the power of music, the power of the people's resilience, and really a remarkable show that was pretty revolutionary for its time.

People in Afghanistan at that time, as you very well know, were coming out of years of the Taliban being in charge and during the Taliban's reign, prior to the US and the Allies' invasion, music was banned.

So there were instruments being burned on the streets, records were contraband, CDs were contraband, cassette tapes were contraband, any musical instruments were contraband.

So all of that stuff, if you got caught with them, would get destroyed, burned, and you may get in trouble during the rule of the Taliban prior to the Ally invasion.

And so there was a lot of pent-up demand and desire for people to engage with music again and when they were able to in Afghanistan, Afghan Star eventually was developed as a show, very similar to American Idol or The Voice, which I'm a coach on, and people were able to vote on their favorite singer.

They were so engaged.

It really captured the attention of the nation and it was quite a remarkable show.

And we thought it was a great story to talk about it, what happened during that time, and I find the story inspiring, but also it really shows you the power of music and the power of the human spirit.

- Yeah, and I think now, of course, with the Taliban back, since the US pulled out in '21, of course it's gone.

I mean, they don't allow that anymore.

Women aren't even allowed to work.

And on Afghan Star, and when I was there, and you mentioned it as well, I think one of the main judges was a woman.

There was a lot of women being able to do things in public that they hadn't been allowed to.

But did you know anything about music?

'Cause it's quite a musical, lyrical country.

They have their own instruments and things.

Just in general, did Afghan music grip you or grab you in any way?

- Well, I learned more about Afghan music during the making of this podcast.

I was able to listen to some of the iconic artists in Afghan musical history, and some of those artists were the artists that the Afghan Star artists were covering.

And of course, Ariana Saeed, who you mentioned, is one of the judges who was on Afghan Star, and she was a pop star herself.

And it was quite revolutionary that she was a judge, because she was the only woman judge.

And then it took a while for women to actually win Afghan Star, but the fact that they were even competing on the show, that they were singing, that they were dancing, that they may even show a little bit of their hair on the show, all of that was quite revolutionary for women in Afghanistan at the time.

- And your podcast does talk a lot about, your show delves into the creator of Afghan Star.

His name is Dawood Siddiqi, and he has a remarkable story.

Tell us a little bit about him.

- Well, he was the creator and the host of the show, and then Saad Moussaini was the founder of Tolo TV, and was an important broadcaster and founder of really groundbreaking entertainment for Afghanistan during this time of increased freedom.

He was there to provide the entertainment and the connection to the rest of the world.

And all of that had to be gotten rid of once the Taliban came back into power.

But what I find is interesting, and I've gotten to speak with Saad since we made the podcast, is that even though the Taliban's back in charge, it's hard to put the genie back in the bottle once people have access to music and access to all of this entertainment.

They find a way to get to it, especially with the internet and mobile devices and all these other things.

Music is not dead in Afghanistan right now, even though the Taliban's back in charge.

I think the spirit that was awakened and revived in Afghanistan by shows like Afghan Star and other connections with music and entertainment, it's hard to put that back in the bottle.

- You know, it's great that you just bring that up because we're gonna play a little clip from one of the episodes when Dawood Siddiqui is talking exactly about that, listening to music even under the first Taliban reign.

- We have this area in Kabul called Makrooriyan.

There are apartment buildings, six floor, seven floor, eight floor.

- A lot of these apartments are empty since residents fled the country to escape the Mujahideen.

So it's a good spot for a clubhouse.

Plus, the apartments are so high up that you can blast music without fear of getting caught.

- I listen to live music a lot.

I partied a lot.

We went to this building and we have live music.

We have preparing food for us.

That was party.

If I tell you that I listen to more live music during the Taliban than my entire life, you will laugh.

- I mean, it is funny and I can see you laughing.

The idea that they listen to more music in sort of underground cells, so to speak, is quite indicative of the resistance that Afghans have.

- Yeah, and like I said before, I really think it shows the power of the human spirit and the power of music.

And people will find a way to connect to music no matter what the regime might say.

- You have, as you mentioned, your coach on The Voice, you've worked alongside people like Ariana Grande, Christina Aguilera, Reba McEntire, Kelly Clarkson, Gwen Stefani, I mean, just so many, many people.

Translate that or transpose what you've learned there and what you know there and what that kind of show gives to people and can do for people and was probably doing the same in Afghanistan while it was allowed.

- Well, I think people love the idea that these artists who have a dream of being heard and being seen, artists who are unknown and become known to the public, that they can come on these kinds of shows, on our show, The Voice, or on a show like Afghan Star or like American Idol, they can come on The Voice because of their talent and be heard and seen and get an opportunity to amplify their dreams and their desires to make music.

And it's a powerful concept.

People love that concept and that's why these kinds of shows do so well all around the world.

And what made it particularly interesting in Afghanistan was there were folks in Afghanistan, most of them didn't grow up voting for anything.

So the idea of them being able to vote for their favorite singer on their show was quite invigorating for the people of Afghanistan.

And it really captured the intention of the whole nation.

At a time when there was so much division, tribal conflict and conflicts between different regions and ethnicities, but Afghan Star brought everyone together.

And of course, as much fun as we have on The Voice, as much inspiration as we get from the artists on The Voice, the stakes were much higher in Afghan Star because not only were these performances groundbreaking and the fact that women were involved groundbreaking, but at a certain point, it started to become risky for the show to even happen because the Taliban was starting to regain some power, particularly outside of the cities.

And so there was some risk involved in even putting on the show as long as they did.

And so the stakes were incredibly high.

And just the fact that this show was made for this many years was quite remarkable.

- John Legend, you obviously known very much also for your social activism through your music in many, many areas, and we're gonna talk about them.

If Afghanistan is now emblematic of anything, it is of the absolute abuse and restrictions they put on women.

And I wanna ask you about looking inside for a little bit, back in the United States, there seems to be a lot now in your industry trying to look inwards to how women are treated.

And I'm talking specifically about the latest, about Sean Diddy Coombs, you were on his last album.

Are you also feeling that the idea of the abuse of women, domestic partner abuse, it needs to be really handled once and for all and not swept under the carpet as it has been for so long?

Let's just say in your industry.

- Oh, well, I was horrified by the allegations that I heard about Mr. Combs, and of course horrified by the video evidence that was released after that.

But I was horrified by the descriptions that I read before the video evidence came out.

And absolutely it's something that needs to be brought to light when it happens.

And my default stance is to believe women when they make these accusations, and to make sure that we do whatever we can to support women who are making these allegations and make sure that they're heard and that any kind of accountability and reparations can be made to make these women whole again.

It's shameful what Mr. Combs has been accused of.

And I only want the best for Cassie, but also for all the other victims that have alleged that he's abused them.

It's really tough to see those descriptions and to see those videos.

It's quite a shame.

And I really just want accountability and hopefully some healing for all of his victims.

- You know, as I said, you're very vocal about a lot of things about prison reform in the United States.

You wrote the song "Glory" for Selma, the film about Martin Luther King, the March for Civil Rights.

You're an EGOT, you know, you won an Oscar for that.

And you said in your acceptance speech, "The struggle for justice is right now."

Nearly a decade later, with such contentious election on the horizon, you know, in many ways, step backwards for justice, for voting rights, for women's rights in the United States.

How do you feel about the struggle?

- Well, when I stood on the stage accepting the Academy Award and talking about mass incarceration and the struggle for justice, we were just in the beginning of thinking about the kind of work we wanted to do and organize around ending mass incarceration.

And we founded Free America 10 years ago, and I'm really proud of the work we've been able to do.

We've worked with organizers all around the country, with activists all around the country, and we've reduced significantly through all of these efforts, the level of incarceration in the United States.

We've helped get some more progressive district attorneys elected, and we've changed a lot of laws that affect a lot of people all around the country, including getting voting rights restored for a lot of folks and making sure that the punishments and sentences were more just and more fitting for the crimes that people were committing.

And so a lot of that work has been kind of in the trenches, working with activists, working with organizers, working with state legislators all around the country, but it's really paid off in actually affecting a lot of people's lives and getting more freedom for more people.

And so I'm pleased to have been involved with that, and I'm going to continue to work on those issues.

- And I want to take you all the way back to the beginning for our final question.

Your very first music credit was on "The Miseducation of Lauryn Hill," and it's back in the news.

- Yeah.

- Yes.

And I just wondered, it's back in the news, and I just wondered, how did that all come about?

How did you get to work on that?

And what are your reflections now all these years later?

- Well, you know, I was a student.

I was at the University of Pennsylvania at the time, and on the weekends, I would drive up to a place called Scranton, Pennsylvania, which is where the president is from, actually.

And so I would drive up there and I would play at a church on the weekend, and one of my choir members had gone to high school with Lauryn Hill, and she was like, "You got to meet Lauryn.

"She's working on her solo album."

And so I would be driving back and forth to Scranton from Philadelphia, but this weekend, I drove over with her to New Jersey to see Lauryn Hill working on this iconic, you know, groundbreaking album, "The Miseducation of Lauryn Hill."

And I got to sit in on a session where they were working on a song called "Everything is Everything."

And eventually, after they had been writing for a while, they were taking a break, and I got to sit down at the piano and play and sing a couple songs for Lauryn and the rest of the folks who were gathered there.

And she invited me to play piano on the track they were working on at the time, "Everything is Everything."

And so I got to be part of this groundbreaking, influential, iconic album, which has now been named the greatest album of all time.

- Yeah.

- And I'm happy that that was my first chance to be a part of any album, was being on that album.

That's pretty cool.

♪ Let me tell you that ♪ Everything is everything ♪ Everything ♪ After winter ♪ Must come spring ♪ Everything is everything - John Legend, thank you so much and your new podcast series about "Afghanstar."

Thanks a lot for joining us.

- Thank you, Christiane.

I'm great to speak with you.

- We turn now to one of the year's biggest TV hits, the spooky show "True Detective Night Country," set in Alaska and starring Hollywood legend Jodie Foster and boxing champ turned actor Kali Reis.

This fourth season was the highest rated of the whole series.

And here's a clip from the trailer.

- I'm working on this new case.

A missing scientist.

Found on the edge of the villages.

Frozen solid.

What do you want?

It's been six years.

Why are you here?

- Because we both know what really happened.

You need my help.

- The stars join me here in London on an award season promotional tour.

Jodie Foster, Kali Reis, welcome to the program.

- Thank you.

- Thank you.

- You have not been on television for a long, long time.

Right on TV.

I mean, have you ever done a major in your adult life?

TV, what attracted you about "True Detective" in this particular series?

- Yeah, I don't think I've done a series since the mid seventies or something.

But I have been doing a little bit of directing on television.

So it's something I was familiar with.

And I was just looking for the opportunity, the right opportunity, the right script, something that moved me really.

- And what about this does?

'Cause when you say moving, I mean, it is, it's horror genre, it's thrilling.

It's in the dead of night.

I mean, it's really heavy duty.

- Yeah, it's a full experience.

We're so proud of this.

I mean, Issa Lopez, the director, just did such a magnificent job writing all the episodes and creating this world with the two "True Detectives" that are female now.

We remember season one and Matthew McConaughey and Woody Harrelson, but there's something really extraordinary about the anthology and being able to say, we're gonna do something completely different.

- So since Jodie brought up season one, it was the dudes, it was the bros, it was, I mean, it's good old male testosterone and getting it done.

And it was really, I mean, it's also a little scary and spooky.

Was it the female led character of this one that attracted you to it?

And it's your first major on screen, right?

- Yes, it's my first major on screen.

It's only my third acting job as well.

So, I mean, it was the story, as Jodie said, that Issa created and just from the first page, I was captivated on these very complex characters, the place itself she created in Innis, Alaska.

And then she incorporated the people of Alaska into the creation stories, into the crimes, into every part of the story is around the people.

And that's what really attracted me to this very, very intense story and to the character.

- And not just around the people, this is very much an indigenous Native American culture that we're all entering.

You are part Cape Verdean, part Native American.

Was that also an attractive calling point for you?

- Absolutely, because the representation and the lack thereof that we have as indigenous people is just, you know, it's getting a lot better and we're just in such a great time.

So when I had the, when it was presented to me, this character, Navarro, was Inupiaq and Dominican.

She was part of two different worlds, part of the community that she was gonna be policing.

- Was your case all those months?

You didn't close it.

You.

- Exactly.

It was something that was so familiar to me 'cause it's kind of that balance that you have to have.

You don't feel enough for either.

So it just attracted me to this very layered character.

- Jodie Foster, Keli was a boxing champ.

- Yeah.

- And she said though that-- - Still is.

- Yeah, it is.

And will maybe go back to boxing?

- I'm not retired yet.

- Okay.

And said that working with you was like training with Mike Tyson.

- Oh.

- Without the biting.

(laughing) - She didn't bite any ears.

- Yeah.

- She didn't bite any ears off.

No, it was like training with Mike Tyson in like '86 in his prime.

Like, what better way to learn the craft?

- I mean, it must be intimidating.

This is one of the world's great, great actors since the age of six years old.

Multi Oscar winning, multi award winning director, all of that in our consciousness for all sorts of reasons for so many years.

Was it intimidating?

- Absolutely, I was terrified.

(laughing) I was so terrified.

But I was excited because I knew something terrified me like this.

That means it was gonna be, I was gonna learn so much.

And what better hands to be in to learn from than somewhere like this.

So I was so excited.

- And Jodie, you know, you are obviously a mentor of sorts, I guess, for all the newcomers and younger actresses.

But I'm really interested in reading, and I want you to explain to me that when Issa brought you this, you decided that you wanted your character, Liz Danvers, to be aged up.

- Well, my age, yes.

- Your age.

(laughing) - Yes.

- But putting Navarro's story as the center.

- Yeah.

- Is that right?

- Yeah, and I think Issa probably wanted that too, but it was something that I really wanted to remind us that we were doing something that really isn't done very much, just to have the central voice of the film be an indigenous voice, to be, look through those eyes in a way, not just because we're doing representation, but because we really want to be in that body and really understand it from that perspective.

And so to do that, I'm just here to support.

So I kind of reverse engineered my character of Liz Danvers to support Kali's character's journey.

- That doesn't happen often.

- Well, you know, there's a funny thing that happens when you turn 60, I think, is, at least for me, I feel like there's like some weird chemical that starts going off in your body and you just don't care.

And part of that not caring is that you suddenly realize that it's so much more fun and more satisfying to recognize that it's not your time, it's someone else's time.

And it's up to you to help support them and bring whatever experience and wisdom you have to that process.

And you get to be part of a team, which is amazing.

It's so much better than doing everything on your own and being all nervous and anxious about yourself.

- And Kali, that is really generous in my opinion.

What did you, you brought a lot of your own experience, I think, from what I read, to the character.

You had an experience that was very negative with a police officer in Rhode Island, where you come from.

And you play a very vulnerable character in this.

Jodie's character is much more hard-ass, right?

Much more hard-bitten.

Right?

- Yeah, she does some (beep) - Yeah, so you should know she does.

- She has a bad temper in the character.

- Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know.

And you're pretty physically intimidating as you're portrayed in that film.

But you have a very soft spot for the central character, who's the murdered woman, Annie, and also your own sister, as she's played in a mental health issues.

I mean, there's so much that comes into this horror detective flick.

- Yeah, there is.

And you know, the horror is, the real horroris is that it's realistic.

You know, we put a lot of, Issa put a lot of realistic issues, especially that circle around the indigenous community.

One being missing and murdered indigenous women in our people get targeted, and we don't get mainstream attention on this.

And there isn't any answers.

In isolated communities, especially indigenous communities, suicide rates are 10 times worse.

Women are 10 times more likely to face violent crimes in their lifetime.

So these are the realistic issues that were really near and dear to my heart personally, and that I brought right into Navarro's character.

She just has this craving for truth and justice for these women, and she does have a short fuse, rightly so.

So there was a lot of realism that, from my personal experience, and the other experiences that I've heard from different families and different communities doing my research.

- And this police officer in Rhode Island, who, what did he do?

Did he beat you up?

Did he get you in a, I can't remember exactly, but has he seen this?

Has he?

- I hope so.

I really do.

I hope so.

You know, it's crazy.

The things too, that really messed me up because I didn't do anything wrong.

I was at work.

I was a security officer at a club, and he came in and just asserted his authority the wrong way, as they do.

And he just started wailing on me for no reason.

And this was my first night back.

I had a really bad motorcycle accident months before.

I was on light duty, and he just went calling me all derogatory names, and then threw me in the paddy wagon, and then told me I had to apologize in order to get myself out.

But what he didn't know is that there was a camera underneath where everything happened.

But I was confused.

It was really, it was a dark time in my life, and it really messed me up, especially when you think, like, police officers, they're supposed to be there to help and protect and serve.

And, you know, I'm part of not a police officer, but I was security.

So to flip it on its head and kind of really have to face this actual thing, put the uniform on, it was cathartic, I will say that.

But I'm proud that I was able to do that.

Like, I couldn't even hear sirens for a while.

It was really bad.

- Wow.

- Yeah.

- And just talking about the scenery, I mean, you say, obviously, it's set in Alaska, the night country, but you didn't film in Alaska, right?

You filmed in Iceland.

- Yeah, we filmed in Iceland because we wouldn't be able to film in Alaska.

It was too remote, and you can't, there were no roads in a lot of the places that we'd have to be.

So we filmed in Iceland, and we brought everybody from Alaska there.

So that was fun.

We had all these wonderful Alaskan actors and also Greenlandic actors who share a heritage.

So some of them, they sort of meet in the Arctic and all the native Inuit people sort of connected with each other.

So that was satisfying.

- And is, I mean, was it dark all the time?

Obviously, every scene we see is dark, and it's, ah, you know, if you've got "sads" or something, it's a bit difficult.

- It's dark most of the day, and when the sun is up and like the really heat, oh, the darkness of the dark, it's only like dawn for like maybe three or four hours a day, and it's just very like a twilight.

But it's dark.

I wasn't personally affected, but I could see how in being in an isolated area like that, for that long, dark all the time.

- How long was the shoot?

- We were there for seven months.

- Oh, really?

- Yeah.

- In all dark days?

- Well, not all of them.

- You survived.

- Well, we got there, we got there in October, so it was more like fall, and it wasn't, you know.

- So we got to experience the transition of it being like kind of normal to all dark, and then when we left, it was going back, backwards actually.

- So the last major thriller detective that you played, obviously, was in Hannibal Lecter.

- Yes, Silence of the Lambs.

- Silence of the Lambs, sorry.

Got an Oscar.

How different was this, and do you like being that kind of?

- Well, I hadn't, I never played another police officer, sort of FBI investigator ever again, because I felt like Silence of the Lambs was such a unicorn, you know, it was such an extraordinary movie, and all things came and were aligned, it had this special thing, and I really haven't felt that feeling until this one.

I was saying that last night, you know, this film was very easy to make, because there's so much love, and it's so genuine, and we were all crazy about each other, and somehow everything just kind of fell into place, and I felt that about Silence of the Lambs too.

- Congratulations, 'cause you're nominated again, in this case, Best Supporting Actress, right?

For "Nyad."

- Yes.

- Tell me the story, because everybody should know it.

- Ah, well, it's the story of Diana "Nyad", who is a swimmer, had been a marathon swimmer for all her whole life, and then came back at the age of 60, finally accomplishing her mission at 64, to swim from Cuba to Florida.

- And that's more than 100 miles.

- More than 100 miles, and no person else has ever done it without a shark tank.

- It really is extraordinary, but you know, going back to, one of the things that I thought was incredibly moving about it, is not only her determination, and her success at that age, plus at any age, but Annette Bening and yourself, again, kind of aged up.

I mean, you were not shy about the sun damage, and the mask damage that she had, you know, the lip.

- Yeah, poor Annette.

- Oh my gosh.

I mean, that takes some courage also, to be feeling screamed at.

- Yeah, as I say, I was Best Supporting Abs, because I just, I never had to get in the water, I basically just stood on the boat, and sucked in my stomach and my jogger bra, and that was pretty much all I had to do.

- And shouted at her.

- And shouted at her.

- But you know them, right?

You know the actual real Bonnie, the friend, and Diana, the swimmer.

- Yes, Diana and Bonnie are good friends, I love them.

That really was the reason why I did it, that and working with Annette, and I see them all the time, Bonnie and Diana, we play cards together, and we watch tennis matches together, and I really love them.

- Is it still really exciting, to get an award nomination, to do these films?

Again, you've been doing it since you were, what, three?

- Three.

- Three?

- Yeah.

- I mean, boggles the mind, right?

- So cute.

- Well, yeah, it's exciting.

I mean, you know, I think "True Detective" is probably one of the best experiences I've ever had.

So, you know, you think like, oh well, it's never gonna get any better, but then you get to, you know, you get to 61 years old, "True Detective," and I do feel like we're this family, and that we did something that I'm just so proud of, and so it's surprising that it gets better and better.

- And just talking about a family, there's the whole taxi driver, kind of cast, group, - Oh yeah.

- that's all meeting at the Oscars, right?

You've got, - Oh yeah, that's right.

- well, I mean, I think Robert De Niro, and Martin Scorsese, - Martin Scorsese.

- "Killers of the Flower Moon."

- Yes.

- Is it, will it be nice to see them all again, or do you see them regularly?

- It is, no, I don't see them regularly, but you know, every time I see them, I'm like, wow, damn, we're old.

It's pretty funny.

- And I read that by the time you did that film, I think you were, you, you, you, you, - I was 12 years old.

- You were 12, and you had more experience in film than either Martin Scorsese or Robert De Niro.

- Yes, I had made more movies than either one of them at that point, but it is funny to see, I mean, of course, I have so much respect for Scorsese and De Niro and all of the movies that they've made, but yeah, my reference for them is very different.

You know, Martin Scorsese had a little funny mustache, and he was really young, and his mother was on set the whole time, and she was always like, - On "Taxi Driver."

- Yes, and she was tucking in his shirt all the time, and she was like patting his butt.

- And not making sure you were okay.

(laughing) - So I do have a different memory of that.

- Patting his butt, that's very good.

And just because, "Killers of the Flower Moon" is another amazingly timely film in terms of diversity and representation of indigenous people.

Did you like the film?

- You know, there's mixed feelings about the film.

They're not anything negative.

It's one of those things where you kind of have to take things in steps.

I believe that, I am so proud that they worked with the Osage Nation to tell the story from an authentic, from that experience, from that perspective, instead of going in, saying what they were gonna do, and then doing what they wanted to do.

It was so, I am so proud of Lily Gladstone and the entire indigenous cast, and the entire Osage Nation.

She did a wonderful job, so did the whole cast.

So I think having an ally like Martin Scorsese, who took his platform and told this story, and worked with them, it's an amazing opportunity just to continue to go forward.

I did enjoy the performances in it.

I think that it can go, keep going forward.

- Keep being developed.

Keep being developed in a better direction, - - good direction, that they're going.

- Oh, I was just gonna say, one of the things that we have going for us is that we have this thing called streaming.

And you're able to have limited series, and it gives you an opportunity to explore something in a really deep way, sometimes a deeper way than you could ever do on film.

And even though Scorsese was able to do a movie that lasted three and a half hours, quite long, right, to explore that whole story, there's so much more story there that wasn't looked into that I would like to offer to him.

Please do a limited series for six hours, so that we can explore the whole story.

- Are you making us some news here?

Some Hollywood news?

- Should I send him a note?

- Yeah, yeah, or just tell us, you know, that you'll direct it and he can produce it.

- Oh, no, no, no, he should, or he can act in it.

Or he can act in it.

- Yeah, I mean, that's really interesting.

You are going to keep acting.

- Absolutely.

- And keep boxing?

- I'm not retired from boxing yet, but I have-- - I like that diplomatic answer.

- Very diplomatic.

- Second time.

- Yes, I mean, I've been boxing professionally for almost 16 years now, and I have six world titles, two different weight classes, and I've seen it evolve, and it's beautiful.

And for, you know, if it wasn't for boxing, I probably wouldn't have been found, you know what I mean?

So I love boxing, I'll always be involved in it.

Fighters never know when to quit, but I don't want to fight long at all.

- But maybe you know when to quit when you've got something as amazing as this to step into.

- It's really nice to have it, you know, both right now, and like I said, I haven't fought since my last fight in 2021, and I'm not banging down the gym door, but if the opportunity's there, but I'm gonna continue acting.

I love the storytelling, and it's, I guess I'm okay at it.

(laughing) - Yeah, it's remarkable.

I mean, both your performances are remarkable.

And what next on the acting front for you?

- No idea.

- No, a directing front?

- No, I don't know yet.

It's something I'm working on, so hopefully I'll be able to get that off the ground.

I did-- - I can offer you a platform to tell us.

- There you go.

But I did do two films back-to-back as an actor, so I think I'd like to get a step behind the camera again.

- Okay.

Jodie Foster, Kayleigh Reese, thank you so much indeed.

- Thank you.

- And finally, breaking barriers in the world of opera.

When it premiered at the New York Metropolitan in 2021, "Fire Shut Up In My Bones" set a new record.

It was the first work by a black composer in the Met's 138-year-old history.

Grammy Award-winning musician Terence Blanchard adapted the memoir of the New York Times columnist, Charles Blow.

It's a very personal and often heart-wrenching story.

♪ Is that your destiny ♪ ♪ Is it my destiny ♪ You tell me Well, in 2024, that show went back to the Met, where I joined Terence Blanchard to discuss why he wants to be a turnkey and not a token.

Terence Blanchard, welcome to our program.

- Oh, thank you for having me.

- It's great to have you, particularly in the midst of this rave hit re-performance of this opera.

What, first of all, inspired you to take the story of Charles Blow and make it into an opera?

- I think the first thing that got me was the whole sense of being other.

I wasn't sexually assaulted as a kid, but I know what it's like to be different in your neighborhood.

And to see everything that he went through and to become this amazing success story, I think it was really important, because I feel like the project itself could help a lot of people.

And I think it already has, because when we did it at first, there were a lot of people who came to see it, saw what he went through, and they see how he's such a brilliant writer.

They really got inspired about how strong his perseverance is.

- So, obviously, Charles Blow, as we've said in the introduction to you, is the New York Times columnist who grew up in the South and had a very difficult and, as you say, violent childhood, including sexual abuse.

I want to ask you about writing, because we've got some clips.

Here's one piece, "Charles, What I Wanted to Say."

♪ What is this feeling?

♪ ♪ Is this my heart breaking?

Tell us what it's about and how you went around writing it.

- "Charles, What I Wanted to Say" is one of the culminating scenes where he's gone through everything in his life.

He's been sexually assaulted.

He's trying to figure out who he is.

He's trying to find his way through life.

He's starting to understand that maybe he's attracted to men, but he's dating women.

And this scene really is probably one of the most emotional scenes for me, because he's really becoming vulnerable with his girlfriend, Greta.

And at the same time, she's been dating someone else, and she's starting to really explain it to him.

And he thinks that she's leaving him because he told her about the abuse.

But no, but she's been dating someone for the entire time.

And it's just a heartbreak of a scene for me.

Every time I see it, you know, the way the actors perform it, it's amazing, because there's one portion of the scene that I think really gets me, where he grabs her and says, "Please don't leave me.

You're the only thing that's been keeping them at bay."

(Charles singing) ♪ I need you ♪ You're the only thing keeping them at bay ♪ And that, to me, is like a very vulnerable, but powerful moment.

- Interestingly, you said just earlier that you believe a lot of people can learn and be helped by this.

How do you mean, and what have you noticed in the audience for this opera?

- Well, you know, one of the things that I experienced with Charles when we did it the first time in St. Louis, you know, I didn't let him come to rehearsals.

At the time, I thought it was a great idea, but then when we got to the night of the premiere, I'm like, "What was I thinking?"

But I walked over to him afterwards, and I say, "Are we okay?"

You know, and he goes, "Oh, yeah."

He says, "That just made me realize I'm not that person anymore."

And then he wrote a column about it.

And then that started to spark a lot of debate.

But when we were here, when we premiered it here, I was standing right out in the lobby talking to some people, and a guy walked up to me in tears.

And he said, "Thank you, I'm a survivor."

And he walked away.

And that, to me, was one of the reasons why we do this, because I know that there are a lot of people out there suffering.

A lot of times, they don't wanna talk about these issues, especially when it comes to family members, you know?

But this story, hopefully, will help people deal with those issues.

- So, you know, Terrence, you're an incredibly accomplished musician, performer, producer, et cetera.

But it is the first time in 138 years of the Met's history that a black composer is bringing a piece to this stage.

How do you reflect on that?

- It's been an amazing thing to experience, because, obviously, it's a huge honor.

I don't take anything away from that.

But the thing that I've been saying is that I need to put an asterisk by my name, because I may be the first, but I'm not the first qualifier.

- What do you mean by that?

- Well, I saw a ledger here where William Grant Still's name was in the ledger three times, where he was rejected.

- Remind us who he is, for those who don't know.

- William Grant Still's one of our greatest African-American composers, who created a lot of great works.

And he wrote an opera called "Highway One," which I had heard prior to coming here for rehearsals.

I heard it in St. Louis, didn't know it was William Grant Still.

Like, when I'm listening to it, I'm going, "Man, this is amazing.

This is like current."

And it was written in the '30s.

And when I looked at the response to all the comments, it broke my heart, 'cause it said, "Doesn't understand what it takes to write real opera."

Well, he was creating a whole new language inside the operatic world, and people really didn't get it.

So for me, I take it as a huge honor to be the first, but I'm standing on their shoulders.

- You even mentioned, I think, Scott Joplin.

- Scott Joplin, Treemonisha, yeah, there's so many people, and I'm glad to see Anthony Davis got a chance to do "X" here, because he had written it in the '80s, and it wouldn't be performed here.

- Tell me about the audiences, 'cause I've read that they are much more black and African-American than usually fills this hallowed space.

- Well, that's been the beautiful thing about having the production here.

We've had probably one of the most diverse audiences that The Met has ever seen.

And the beautiful thing about that is that they're not only just coming to "Fire,", but they've been buying tickets to other productions.

So it's been sparking an interest in opera.

And the thing that I've been saying to the opera world in general is that you should start to realize there's a huge demographic of people out there that's been overlooked for generations, and they've been showing up in large numbers.

- Because most people, frankly, do not think of black operas, right?

African-Americans creating opera.

It's usually the old white guys of Europe who are the canon and have remained so for several hundred years.

What would you say to people who are just surprised?

I mean, it's different opera.

- Right.

Well, the thing is, it's not just the composers, but the performers as well.

This one journalist asked me, he said, "Do you think your opera's gonna inspire young people to sing opera?"

And I'm like, "Bruh, man, people of color have been singing opera for generations."

You know what I mean?

A lot of it is like things that we're doing right now, gaining coverage, educating the public to what's been going on.

That's why I appreciate you having me on the show, because this means a lot, not only to me, but just in general to the people who are involved in this, because there are other composers who have done stuff, but nobody has ever heard their work.

One of the principals in the first production of "Fire," Will Liverman, has written an opera, and he's trying to gain traction with his work.

There are people out there who have stories to tell.

And the thing that I've been saying, too, and I really mean this, I don't wanna be a token, I wanna be a turnkey.

There needs to be women, there needs to be people of other backgrounds, ethnic backgrounds, telling stories, because that's what the public, I really feel, wants to see.

- You've said "Fire" several times.

Obviously, that's a shortening of the full name of the opera.

- "Fire" is short for... - Exactly.

So tell us about the meaning of the title.

- Well, you know, it's the whole idea behind this burning anxiety to really scream about who you really are.

And you try to keep that down because society tells you you're different.

One of the things that Charles said, and just in passing, to Kasi Lemmons, who's the woman who wrote the libretto, he said, "I once was a boy of peculiar grace."

And it was a throwaway line.

But Kasi heard it, and she said, "You know what, that's actually really powerful."

And that became one of the main themes of the opera.

You'll hear it throughout the opera maybe like three or four times.

- You have, you're a trumpeter.

You've worked on scores for films.

- Yes.

- Notably, a lot of Spike Lee.

What's different between that, and what of that world do you bring to this world?

- Well, what I bring to this world is my sense of drama from the film world and writing for orchestra.

Writing for orchestra is not a thing, it's not a huge issue for me.

I've been doing it for a number of years.

What's been challenging is writing for voice, because all of the voices are different.

All of the registers are different, even though they're labeled the same, you know, soprano, tenor, whatever.

And trying to find the best ranges for them, that's been the challenge.

The other thing that's interesting about doing opera versus doing film, film, when I get to film, it's done.

It's all cut together, and everything's edited and put together.

Here, it's all about what's in my mind, how I want a certain scene to be paced.

You know, and then there's constant music.

So I've been describing this thing that we call musical air, when you need to just have silence, but need to have space for people to move around.

- And it could change each night.

- Oh, it changes every night.

And that's the thing that I love too, because one of the things about these African American singers in the operatic world, a lot of them either grew up in a church, sang jazz or sang R&B, and when it comes time to sing Puccini, Wagner, or any of those guys, they have to turn that off, turn it away.

But what we've been saying in my production is that we want you to bring all of that culture back, because this is a current story.

- So do you, I mean, do you bring gospel, soul, I mean, all the stuff that is part of your heritage into this?

- Oh, definitely.

- It's a whole mix.

- It's a whole mix.

I mean, there's actually a church scene in here with the guys, they have a lot of fun with it.

You know, and you can see the chorus, they go right back to church, man.

It's like Sunday morning.

- And it must be a bit of a foot stomping favorite with the crowds.

- The audience loves it.

The chorus has so much fun with it.

I think they wanna extend the scene.

- And it's not usual in an opera, in a metropolitan opera house, right?

I mean, there's participation from the audience?

- Right, it's not a usual thing.

And also, we have a step sequence in the opera that always gets a standing ovation every night.

And the interesting thing about that is that, you know, the reason why I think that that gets that resounding reaction is because people are seeing the culture on the stage at the metropolitan opera house.

And I think for some people who really don't understand that, they don't understand the culture.

- Go back to your childhood a bit.

You talked about inspiration and what you'd heard.

But your father was fond of opera.

- My father-- - Didn't you used to sing it around the house?

- My father loved opera.

He was an amateur baritone.

There was a guy named Isiola Blanchet, C-H-E-T, who taught my dad and some other African American males in New Orleans opera.

And they would always rehearse at Mr. Blanchet's house on Wednesday nights.

I'll never forget it.

And I thought those were some of the most unusual dudes on the planet.

And when my father would be at home, you know those records that you were never allowed to touch?

You know, he would pull those out.

And when he would start playing his records, man, you would hear doors slamming in my house.

'Cause everybody was like, oh, there he goes.

- There he goes again, singing that stuff.

And did you burst into opera at home at a young age or not?

- No, I mean, you know-- - Do you sing?

- No, I always tell a story, man.

They put me in a choir for one Sunday at church.

They heard me sing.

They said, "Don't he play the trombone?

"He can praise the Lord.

"Go get your horn, baby, "and come back and praise the Lord."

- Yeah, yeah, you do it the better way.

Did your parents think that being a musician was a gainful way to be employed?

Did they want that for their child?

- No, I grew up in a household full of educators.

You know what I mean?

My aunt taught high school.

All of my other cousins and stuff in other parts of Louisiana, they were all educators.

So for me, the thing that I kept hearing, which I hated, was you need something to fall back on.

And for me, I always looked at that as admit and failure.

And I never wanted to think about that.

So I just took a chance.

And I'll never forget, I had a conversation with my dad.

We had a big argument about something, and he called me up and he said, "I'm proud of you."

And I'm like, "What do you mean?"

He said, "If you would have listened to me, "you probably would have stayed in New Orleans "and not followed your career, "and you probably wouldn't be as happy "as you are doing what you're doing."

- Is there another version planned for elsewhere?

- Yes, it's getting ready to go to D.C., and then later on, it's gonna go back out to San Francisco.

And it started in St. Louis.

That was the first place that we did it.

But you know, it's been an amazing thing to witness because the thing that I love is with each production, the vocalists, they just get deeper and deeper into the characters.

- You do a lot of genre crossing.

And of course, the big topic of musical genre crossing conversation is Beyonce and-- - Oh, right, right, right, right.

- Yeah, yeah, yeah, Cowboy Carter.

And some people say, "What, how can you?"

And it's really popular, obviously.

It's soared to the top, and it's wonderful.

♪ Blackbird singing in the dead of night ♪ ♪ Take these broken wings and learn to fly ♪ ♪ All your life ♪ You were only waiting for this moment to arise ♪ - Commentary on that and on maybe people thinking you've gotta stay in your lane, whoever you are?

- Well, the thing that's always amazed me is when you try to explore different things, people have a problem with it.

And I don't understand it because there's a natural curiosity about music in general.

And Beyonce's always been that way.

I did a commercial with her years ago.

We did a Pepsi commercial together where she sang "Karma."

She came in and sang "Karma" and did a great job.

And I've seen her shows live where she would sing "Operatic Iris" during her show.

So she's always had a natural curiosity for music in general.

So when somebody told me that she was doing a country album, I'm like, "Figures, it just makes sense."

And let's see what's gonna happen after that.

She'd be going a totally different direction after that, but that just makes sense.

And I don't understand why people are upset about it.

They should be praising her for her musical prowess and acumen to be able to do it.

Not only do it, but do it in such a way that's respectful of the genre and do it on a high level.

- You're here at an incredibly important time.

There's so much political division, not just between parties, but between races.

- I watch your show all the time.

- Well, we talk about it all the time.

And obviously music has a history of being part of movements, including the civil rights movement, et cetera.

Do you have a thought on the importance of music today in 2024 in the midst of this really difficult division that we're all living?

- Music is probably, and art is probably more important now than anything.

You gotta remember, when Champion first premiered here, it was the first thing that opened the Met after the pandemic.

We had just gone through the whole George Floyd scenario.

And people were still, the interesting thing about the George Floyd thing for me was that some of my friends who were white finally got a chance to see what we had been talking about for generations.

They never really understood it.

And coming here at the Met, this is one of the places where all of those different walks of life can come in here and experience something on the same plane.

Now, this happens to be an all-black cast for "Fire Shut Up In My Bones," but this story could be told by anybody.

And when people come in here, I don't think people realize it's an all-black cast.

I don't think that's the first thing that comes to your mind.

What comes to your mind is that this is a coming of age story with a guy who was sexually assaulted by a family member.

And I see so many people of different walks of life relate to the story.

And that, hopefully, they can carry out into their daily lives.

And that's one of the reasons why I think music and art is more important now than ever.

- Give me some of your experiences playing and how music has been, you know, you've noticed it being a kind of uniter.

- One of the funny ones for me, at least, was when "Champion," my first opera, went to the Kennedy Center.

I come out on the stage for, you know, to take my bow, and I look down and there's Newt Gingrich at the channel.

I'm like, "Oh, okay, hey."

(laughs) You know?

And another time, I played at the American Embassy in Russia, and the ambassador told me at the time, he said, "Man," he said, "You've probably done more "for American-Russian relations than anybody "because there were some old oligarchs here "who came to your show and really enjoyed the music."

And that part of it speaks to just what we were talking about earlier, the power of music, how it can break down people's inhibitions and, you know, hopefully get to the core of some issues.

You know, because deep down, I tend to believe, and it's just because of my spiritual background, I just tend to believe we're more alike than we're different, you know?

And it's just hard for us to kind of admit that sometimes.

- Terrence Blanchard, thank you so much indeed.

- Thank you, it's an honor.

- That's it for our program tonight.

If you want to find out what's coming up every night, sign up for our newsletter at pbs.org/amanpour.

Thank you for watching, and join us again tomorrow.

(upbeat music)