♪ ♪ ♪ >> Crossley: WELCOME TO "BASIC BLACK."

SOME OF YOU ARE JOINING US ON OUR LIVE BROADCAST, AND OTHERS OF YOU ARE JOINING US ON FACEBOOK LIVE AND TWITTER.

I'M CALLIE CROSSLEY, HOST OF "UNDER THE RADAR."

89.7.

TONIGHT: THE ARRIVAL OF THE FIRST AFRICAN SLAVES IN 1619 TO AMERICA AND ABOLITIONIST, HARRIET TUBMAN, ONCE A SLAVE WHO HELPED OTHERS REACH FREEDOM USING THE UNDERGROUND RAILROAD.

HER JOURNEY IS DEPICTED IN THE NEWLY RELEASED FILM, "HARRIET."

WHAT CAN WE LEARN FROM THE PAST ABOUT THOSE WHO WERE BROUGHT HERE IN CHAINS 400 YEARS AGO AND THE PATH THEY FORGED?

AND, HAS THAT PATH OPENED UP OPPORTUNITIES TO PROSPERITY OR KEPT THEIR DESCENDANTS IN A LEGACY OF BONDAGE?

JOINING ME TONIGHT: MARITA RIVERO, PRESIDENT AND C.E.O.

OF THE MUSEUM OF AFRICAN AMERICAN HISTORY-- SHE IS ALSO A FORMER V.P.

AND GENERAL MANAGER, HERE AT WGBH; DR.

KELLIE JACKSON, ASSISTANT PROFESSOR OF AFRICANA STUDIES AT WELLESLEY COLLEGE-- SHE IS THE AUTHOR OF, "FORCE AND FREEDOM: BLACK ABOLITIONISTS AND THE POLITICS OF VIOLENCE"; RENEE GRAHAM, ASSOCIATE EDITOR AND OPINION COLUMNIST FOR THE "BOSTON GLOBE"; AND KIM McLARIN, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR OF WRITING, LITERATURE AND PUBLISHING, EMERSON COLLEGE-- SHE IS ALSO A COLUMNIST, FOR THE "WASHINGTON POST'S" "THE LILY."

WELCOME TO ALL OF YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

THAT MOVED OUTSIDE OF THE CLASSROOM INTO PUBLIC CONVERSATIONS, INTO PODCASTS.

PEOPLE REALLY ENGAGED WITH THIS HISTORY IN A SIGNIFICANT WAY.I'M REALLY IMRESSED BY IT AND THE REALLY IMRESSED BY IT AND THE AMOUNT OF CONVERSATION, CRMS WHEN THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WENT TO THE COMMEMORATION THEY CAME FROM AROUND THE WORLD.

BECAUSE OF SLAVERY AND ITS IMPACT AROUND AMERICA, HAS REALLY TOUCHED THE DIASPORA.

MARITA, WHAT IS YOUR TAKE ON IT, THE COMMEMORATION OF THE ANNIVERSARY AND TO BE DISCUSSING THIS HISTORY?

>> WE'RE TALKING ABOUT EXPANDING THE HISTORY, WE ARE STANDING RIGHT NEXT TO EACH OTHER.

THERE'S NO REASON TO TELL ONE NARROW STORY.

WHEN YOU START FROM THAT DAY, YOU DON'T REALLY UNDERSTAND WHAT WE'RE DOING TODAY, YOU HAVE NO CONNECTION TO THE ISSUES OF TODAY.

SO THE IDEA THAT BACK TO BACK THE TIMES AND HAMPTON COULD PUT TOGETHER ENOUGH INFORMATION AND HAVE THAT POWER, TO BEGIN TO HAVE PEOPLE SAY OH, RIGHT, WHAT WAS THAT AGAIN?

MEANS THAT AS WE THINK ABOUT OUR ISSUES OF EQUITY, AND RACE, AND WHO WAS HERE AND WHO'S AN AMERICAN, THINKS WE'RE A BIG DEAL NOW WHO'S AN AMERICAN, WE CAN HAVE A MUCH MORE INFORMED VIEW.

THERE WERE WOMEN HERE, ALL PEOPLE OF COLOR, CARIBBEAN, SOUTH AMERICAN, WE WERE ALL HERE.

ILLEGALITIES TELL THAT STORY.

>> Crossley: RENEE, WHAT'S YOUR STORY?

>> I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT, IT'S A CONVERSATION TO HAVE BECAUSE IT BROADENS THIS COUNTRY.

THIS IS LIVING HISTORY.

THIS ISN'T SOME DUSTY THING THAT HAPPENED 400 YEARS AGO, AND WE'RE LOOKING BACK AND SAYING LOOK HOW HORRIBLE IT WAS.

1619 INFORMS WHAT WE ARE DOING TODAY AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT'S DRIVING INTEREST TO IT.

THERE'S A SENSE THAT OH MY GOD THIS THING JUST SUDDENLY HAPPENED AND WHAT THE 1619 PROJECT TERMS US ASK NO, THIS DIDN'T JUST HAPPEN.

WHERE WE ARE HERE IS 400 YEARS IN THE MAKING.

THAT'S THE KIND OF HISTORY THAT NOT JUST AFRICAN AMERICANS BUT ALL AMERICANS HAVE TO TO GRAPPLE WITH.

AND UNDERSTAND WHAT'S HAPPENED TODAY.

>> Crossley: WHAT HAPPENED IN THE 1619 PROJECT, AS FRAMED BY NICOLE HANNAH JONES, WHAT THE FIRST AFRICANS THAT CAME AND ITS FOUNDATION FOR AMERICA.

>> I THINK SUCCESS OF THE PROJECT IS THAT REFRAMING OF NOT JUST THE AFRICAN AMERICAN STORY BUT THE AMERICAN STORY.

WE LIKE TO TELL THE STORY BEGINNING JAMES TOWN, PLYMOUTH ROCK, 1776 AND HIGHLIGHTS, BLACK PEOPLE ARE ABSENT FROM THOSE HIGHLIGHTS.

SLAVERY, WE DEALT WITH THAT A WEEK OR TWO IN JUNIOR HIGH SCHOOL RIGHT?

AND THE REAL STORY OF AMERICA, THE GREAT DEPRESSION.

WHAT THE PROJECT IS DOING OR ATTEMPTING TO DO OR HAS DONE BEGINNING ODO IS TO REFRAME THAT STORY NOT JUST AGAIN OF BLACK PEOPLE BUT OF THE UNITED STATES.

THE UNITED STATES BEGINS, I MEAN SETTING ASIDE THE ISSUE THAT, YOU KNOW, AFRICANS WERE HERE ACTUALLY BEFORE 1619, WHICH IS REALLY IMPORTANT, RIGHT?

THOSE WEREN'T LITERALLY THE FIRST AFRICANS TO SET FORTH ON NORTH AMERICA LET ALONE AMERICA.

IN FRAMING THE STORY OF THIS IS WHERE AMERICA BEGINS, IT BEGAN WITH THE ENSLAVEMENT OF AFRICAN PEOPLE.

IT'S IMPORTANT AS RENEE SAID TO REFRAME THE STORY OF LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL.

THAT WASN'T IT FROM THE BEGINNING AND AMERICA HAS TO FACE THAT STORY IF WE ARE EVER TO MOVE FORWARD.

I DON'T THINK WE EVER WILL.

I THINK THIS CONVERSATION IS HELPFUL AND REALLY IMPORTANT BUT IT HAS TO HAPPEN.

>> Crossley: WELL, PART OF THE 1619 PROJECT AS ENVISIONED BY NICOLE HANNAH JONES, THERE IS A COMPONENT OF IT IN SCHOOLS.

I'M MISSING THAT BECAUSE A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE SOUNDED THE ALARM.

MARITA YOU AND I WERE JUST AT A CONFERENCE WHERE THEY WERE DESCRIBING ENSLAVEMENT, PEOPLE ENSLAVED AS INDENTURED SERVANTS, MIGRANTS.

THIS IS NOT IN ARTICLES, YOU ALL REACTED, TALK ABOUT WHY THAT IS A HUGE PROBLEM.

>> THIS IS -- >> HA!

I CAN'T EVEN BEGIN TO TELL YOU HOW PROBLEMATIC THIS IS, WHEN I'M TRYING TO TEACH A COURSE ON HISTORY AND I'M TRYING TO TELL STUDENTS THAT TEXTBOOKS ARE NOT, YOU KNOW, BENIGN, THEY ARE NOT THESE BOOKS WHERE IF YOU HAVE TWO CHAPTERS DEDICATED TO THE HISTORY OF CHRISTIANITY AND TWO PARAGRAPHS ON ISLAM, THESE ARE BOTH OLD RELIGIOUS, TO BE REALLY POLITICAL, WE SEE HOW THAT IS NOT SUBJECTIVE OR IS SUBJECTIVE I SHOULD SAY.

AND THE SAME THING AS WE LOOK AT THE HISTORY OF AFRICAN AMERICANS.

WHEN YOU WANT TO DILUTE SLAVERY INTO SOMETHING THAT IS PALATABLE, DIGESTIBLE IN A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF TIME, NOT SEEN AS TOO VIOLENT AND NOT PUT THE ONUS ON WHITENESS OR WHITE PREM IS -- WHITE SUPREMACY, IT CREATES THIS NARRATIVE THAT ALSO WHITE PEOPLE AND WHITE SUPREMACY IS NOT PROBLEMATIC RIGHT?

IN THE WITH WAY THAT THEY'RE OPERATING WITHIN THE CONFINES OF SLAVERY.

>> AND THAT SLAVERY IS INCIDENTAL TO AMERICA.

AS OPPOSED TO FOUNDATION AM.

THAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT.

THAT IS REALLY THE IMPULSE TO CREATE THIS IDEA THAT YES IT'S THIS BAD THING THATCHED, WE SHOULDN'T HAVE DONE IT BUT IT DOESN'T HAVE MUCH TO DO WITH THIS GREAT COUNTRY THAT WE FOUNDED.

THAT IS NOT TRUE.

THAT IS NOT HISTORICALLY, POLITICALLY, IT'S FOUNDATIONAL TO EVERYTHING, A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO ACCEPT THAT.

>> THAT'S WHAT THE DISSERVICE THAT IS DONE TO GENERATIONS OF AMERICAN SCHOOLCHILDREN.

WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT SLAVERY, YOU GET THIS LITTLE SLAVERY, CIVIL WAR, AND EVERYTHING WAS GREAT.

AND THE DEPRESSION.

>> AND ROASTIE PARKS SAT DOWN.

-- AND ROSA PARKS SAT DOWN.

FTC.

>> AND 250 YEARS OF SLAVERY IN THIS NATION, COMPARE THAT TO, SAY, THE END OF THE CIVIL WAR TO WHERE WE ARE TODAY.

THAT'S A LITTLE MORE THAN 150 YEARS.

SO IN THE EXISTENCE OF THIS NATION, IT WAS MORE OF A SLAVE NATION, A NATION OF ENSLAVED PEOPLE, THAN IT WAS OF FREE PEOPLE.

SO HOW DO YOU BOIL THAT DOWN TO A WEEK?

OR YOU KNOW, EVEN -- >> A SEMESTER?

>> IT'S THE HISTORY BELONGS, HISTORY BELONGS TO THE VICTORS.

THAT HAS TO CHANGE BECAUSE THE VICTORS THEY KIND OF SKEWED IT, THEY STACKED THE DECK.

SO SOMEHOW WHAT WHITE PEOPLE DID AND HOW THE VERY WAY THEIR ATTITUDES HARMED THE FACE, CONTINUE TO DO SO LITERALLY GETS WHITE WASHED.

AND IF YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT SLAVES AS INDENTURED SERVANTS OR AS THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION SAID, IMMIGRANTS, IT'S ALWAYS DESIGNED TO LESSEN THE HORRORS THAT WERE HAPPIED UPON THESE PEOPLE FOR CENTURIES.

>> AND THE GROSS NATIONAL PRODUCT OF THE UNITED STATES, THIS ACCOUNTS FOR ABOUT 70%.

GROSS NATIONAL PRODUCT.

EVERYBODY WAS INVOLVED IN THIS.

>> EXACTLY.

>> BY THE TIME WE GET TO LET'S SAY 1900 WE'RE ONE OF THE RICHEST NATIONS IN THE WORLD.

OFF THE BACKS OF -- >> RIGHT, RIGHT.

>> BY THEN THE MONEY HAS BEEN WASHED THROUGH BANKS, THROUGH THE FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS.

WE'RE NOW TALKING ABOUT ROBBER BARONS AND THE BELLE EPOCHE, AND A WHOLE NEW CONSIDERATION OF BUILDERS WITHOUT TAKING INTO CONSIDERATION WHERE THAT CASH CAME FROM, WHERE IT CAME FROM.

AND I'D SAY ALONG THE WAY WHAT IT DID TO THE PEOPLE WHO WERE REALLY PUSHING OTHER PEOPLE DOWN, TO IGNORE WHAT'S GOING ON, WHILE YOU'RE MAKING MONEY.

AND JUSTIFY IT IS A PROBLEM.

>> Crossley: TO PICK UP ON WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT ALL THESE DISCUSSIONS FROM THE COMMEMORATION AND THE 1619 PROJECTS DO SO WELT IS CONNECT WHAT HAPPENED 400 YEARS AGO, UP TO TODAY.

SO BY TELLING A STORY ABOUT TRAFFIC, AND HOW IT IS CONNECTED TO -- >> EVERYTHING.

POLICING.

RIGHT?

EVEN THE NATURE OF CAPITALISM, I THINK THE PIECE ON CAPITALISM WHY IT'S PARTICULARLY VIOLENT CAPITALISM.

>> AND WHITE PEOPLE'S OWN RELATION TO THEIR OWN HEALTH AN IMPACT ON THEIR BODIES, HOW THEY'RE TREATED BY THE DOCTOR, HOUSING CRISIS, EVERY SINGLE THING YOU CAN THINK, MASS INCARCERATION, ALL THAT PLAYS INTO THE ORIGINATION OF SLAVERY AND HOW THAT OPERATED.

>> Crossley: SO ONE OF THE THINGS THAT CONTINUES TO BE MISS CONSTRUED AND WE HAVE TO SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT CONSTANTLY AND IT'S IMPORTANT IS FROM THE MOMENT THOSE 20 STEPPED ON THE SHORE THEY WERE FIGHTING BACK.

THEY FOUGHT BACK IN THE MIDDLE PASSAGE TO BRING THEM HERE.

THEY FOUGHT BACK WHEN THEY GOT HERE.

THEY FOUGHT BACK, THEY FOUGHT BACK, THEY FOUGHT BACK.

SO IT WAS NOT A READY ACCEPTANCE OF OH WELL I'M CAPTURED AND THIS IS MY FATE.

THAT NEEDS TO BE SAID.

I SET THAT LEADING INTO ONE OF THE FEARSEST OPPONENTS OF SLAVERY, HARRIET TUBMAN.

PEOPLE MAY KNOW HER AS THE BEST KNOWN CONDUCTOR ON THE UNDERGROUND RAILROAD.

LET'S LOOK AT THE SCENE FROM THE FILM, "HARRIET."

ABOLITIONIST WILLIAM STILL PORTRAYED BY LESLIE ODOM, JR.

EXPRESSES HIS CONCERN TO HARRIET IF SHE GETS CAUGHT RESCUING SLAVES.

>> RESCUING SLAVES REQUIRES SKILL AND CAREFUL PLANNING.

IT REQUIRES READING HARRIET.

CAN YOU READ A SIGN A MAP, CAN YOU READ AT ALL?

>> I TRY PUT MY VOICE ON GOD'S VOICE MORE CLEARLY.

>> YOU POINT THEM RIGHT TO THIS OFFICE.

YOU GOT LUCKY, HARRIET.

AND THERE'S NOTHING MORE YOU CAN DO.

>> DON'T YOU TELL ME WHAT I CAN'T DO.

I'M READY FOR THIS MY HOME.

GOD WAS WATCHING BUT MY FEET WAS MY OWN, RUNNING, BLEEDING, CLIMBING, NEARLY DROWN.

NOTHING TO EAT FOR DAYS AND DAYS AROUND I MADE IT.

DON'T YOU TELL THE ME WHAT I CAN'T DO!

>> Crossley: THAT'S A SCENE FROM THE NEW FILM, HARRIET.

IT'S OPENING TODAY, ABOUT HARRIET TUBMAN.

IN THE PAST MOST PEOPLE THINK OF HARRIET AS AN OLD WOMAN WHO YES INDEED BROUGHT MANY ENSLAVED PEOPLE TO FREEDOM.

BUT YOU NEVER IMAGINE HER AS A YOUNG WOMAN OR WHO SHE WAS WHEN SHE FREED HERSELF AND WHAT IT WOULD BE LIKE ON THE OTHER SIDE AS SHE WAS TALKING TO THE ABOLITIONIST, AND BY THE WAY, WILLIAM STILL IS A REAL PERSON.

RESPONSE TO "HARRIET" THE FILM.

>> WELL, I REALLY WANTED TO LIKE IT.

I THINK IT -- I WOULD JUST SAY I THINK IT DOES HER -- I LIKED SEEING THE YOUNG HARRIET.

I LIKED THAT SHE IS SHOWN AS STRONG.

I THINK YOU CAN TELL US HOW HISTORICALLY ACCURATE IT IS.

MY SENSE IS IT'S PRETTY HISTORICALLY ACCURATE.

I HAVE SOME CONCERNS WITH SOME OF THE SIDE CHARACTERS.

I DON'T WANT TO GET TOO DEEP INTO THE WEEDS BUT MAINLY HAVE THE BLACK MAN BEING THE SLAVE CATCHER AND BE THE MOST BRUTAL CHARACTER ON THE SCREEN.

I THOUGHT IT WAS A NECESSARY ONE BUT I PERSONALLY WAS ACTUALLY A LITTLE DISAPPOINTED.

SORRY.

>> I LOVED IT.

I LOVED IT.

I LOVED IT FOR SO MANY REASONS.

BUT WE DON'T HAVE ALL DAY.

BUT I LOVED IT BECAUSE, ONE, I TEACH A COURSE ON SLAVERY IN FILM.

AND IF YOU KNOW THE GENRE THERE'S BASICALLY NOTHING THAT HAS A BLACK WOMAN PROTAGONIST AT THE CENTER OF THE FILM.

HARRIET SORT OF DOMINATES EVERY SINGLE FRAME OF THIS FILM.

SHE'S IN IT AND SHE'S FIERCE THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE FILM.

IT WAS SO POWERFUL TO SEE A BLACK WOMAN SAYING, HERE'S WHAT YOU WON'T DO AND HERE'S WHAT YOU WON'T TELL ME TO DO.

TO SEE HER ARMED FROM THE TIME SHE LEAVES THE PLANTATION -- >> Crossley: RESEARCH INTO THAT.

>> IT'S ALL ABOUT FORCE AND FREEDOM.

IT'S ALL ABOUT HOW SHE HAD TO ENGAGE IN FORCE AND HAD TO ENGAGE IN VIOLENCE.

>> IT DOESN'T EXPLAIN THE END THOUGH.

I DON'T WANT TO RUIN IT.

IT'S PROBLEMATIC.

>> I DON'T WANT TO GET INTO SPOILERS BUT I FELT LIKE HISTORICALLY, THERE ARE A LOT OF ASPECTS OF IT THAT WERE ACCURATE.

THERE ARE ALSO A LOT OF ARTISTIC LICENSE THAT IS TAKING PLACE.

I DO WANT TO BE CLEAR THERE WERE BLACK SLAVE CATCHERS.

THAT'S A REALLY BIG DEAL.

BLACK SLAVE CATCHERS WERE EVEN MORE SORT OF SUCCESSFUL BECAUSE THEY COULD WIN THE TRUST OF THEIR BLACK COMPANIONS OR BLACK COMMUNITY AND THEN SELL THEM OFF FOR X AMOUNT OF DOLLARS.

THERE'S ALSO AND IN MY OWN BOOK I TALK ABOUT HOW THOSE SAME BLACK SLAVE CATCHERS ARE ALSO THE MOST SUSCEPTIBLE TO VIOLENCE.

SO THE COMMUNITY TAKES IT OUT ON THEM EXTREMELY HARSH WHEN THEY SEE WHAT THEY ARE DOING.

SOME OF THEM ARE BEATEN TO DEATH, SOME ARE ACTUALLY KILLED.

SO WHEN I SAW THE BLACK SLAVE CATCHER IN THE FILM THAT DIDN'T SURPRISE ME.

I DO THINK THOUGH THE FILM ASSUMES THE AUDIENCE KNOWS THAT THE REAL VILLAIN IS SLAVERY.

SO WHEN I WATCHED THE FILM I THOUGHT THE VILLAIN IS SLAVERY.

BUT I THINK IF YOU'RE NOT ASSUMING THAT PREMISE YOU SEE THE BLACK MAN.

>> I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT THAT THE FILM EXISTS.

HARRIET TUBMAN HAS BEEN DEAD WELL MORE THAN A CENTURY AND THIS IS FIRST FILM ABOUT HER LIFE OR AT LEAST A PART OF HER LIFE.

AND YOU COMPARE THAT TO HOW MANY FILMS THERE HAVE BEEN ABOUT LINCOLN.

THERE ARE TWO FILMS ON TRUMAN CAPOTE WRITING IN COLD BLOOD.

HAVING SAID THAT, I KIND OF 83 WITH KIM, THERE WERE THINGS ABOUT THAT THAT WERE DISAPPOINTING AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT BOTHERED ME MOST, THESE WEIRD INJECTIONS OF HUMOR AND MAYBE IT WAS THE SCREENING I ATTENDED.

BUT A FEW TIMES THEY TRIED TO LIGHTEN THE MOOD, I DON'T THINK SO.

GOING TO THE FATHER, HE DIDN'T WANT TO SEE HER.

SOME WERE LAUGHING THROUGH THOSE SCENES.

>> WHERE SHE WAS BLIND FOLDED YOU MEAN?

>> SOMETIMES HE WOULD SHOW UP, A FEW SCENES WITH THE YOUNGER SLAVE CATCHER.

YOU KNOW?

>> WHEN HE FALLS OFF THE CHAIR, THAT IS SUPPOSED TO BE COMICAL.

>> I CAN GET THROUGH THIS MOVIE WITHOUT COMEDY.

I'M GOOD AND IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN THE AUDIENCE.

BUT.

I CAN'T IMAGINE IT WASN'T TESTED.

IF PEOPLE WEREN'T LAUGHING YOU NEED TO TWEAK THAT SCENE, DO SOME ABOUT THAT.

I THINK CYNTHIA ARIVO WHO PLAYS HARRIET IS FANTASTIC, SHE IS ABSOLUTELY MESMERIZING, IN SOME WAYS THIS IS A SUPERHERO MOVIE.

>> THAT'S THE MODEL.

>> Crossley: YES, MARITA.

>> I LOVED IT, I KNEW THE STORY AND I SAID, I WAS PREPARED TO BE BORED.

THESE BIOPICS, THIS HAPPENING AND THAT HAPPENING.

IT REMAINED AN ADVENTURE FOR ME.

I KNEW, YOU KNOW, I COULD SEE HER WORDS BEING WRITTEN INTO THE SCRIPT BUT THEY CAME NOT AS BIG QUOTES, THEY JUST SOUNDED LIKE SOMETHING SHE WAS SAYING.

I LIKED THE ACTING IN IT.

AND I TOO TOOK IT ON AS SUPERHERO.

I TOOK IT ON AS PLEASE DON'T BORE ME AS SOME KIND OF STEP BY STEP THING.

AND I LOVED IT THAT WE SAW A YOUNG WOMAN, YOUNG HARRIET, NOT THE OLD WOMAN WITH THE WHITE LACE, A YOUNG WOMAN WHO WAS VIBRANT, ILLITERATE, SHE COULD NOT READ OR WRITE BUT YOU COULD NOT SAY SHE WASN'T INTELLIGENT, CREATIVE, COURAGEOUS, ALL THOSE VALUES THAT ARE SOMEHOW WASHED OUT OF BLACK LIFE OFTEN.

MARL -- PARTICULARLY IF YOU WERE AN ENSLAVED PERSON AND CAN'T READ OR WRITE.

>> WEIRD, YOU KNOW, HER HUSBAND LOVES HER.

IT'S THE SCENE WHERE TO SEE HARRIET TUBMAN WHO IS ATTRACTIVE AND DESIRED AND LOVED BY A MAN.

>> WHO HAS A FAMILY, WHO HAS PARENTS, SIBLINGS.

CRP.

>> Crossley: LOTS OF FAMILY.

IF.

>> SHE IS DEFINITELY A SUPERHERO AND I AGREE WITH RENEE, I'M GLAD THIS FILM EXISTS, IT WILL BE AN EDUCATIONAL TOOL.

PERHAPS I'M PARTAKING IT ON A DIFFERENT LEVEL BUT I HONE WE'LL HAVE MANY MORE HARRIET FILMS.

THE SUPERHERO THING WAS A CHOICE, AN IMPORTANT ONE AND I LIKE THAT BUT AGAIN PART OF ME IS, SHE WAS ALSO A HUMAN BEING, RIGHT?

SHE WAS NOT IN FACT, SHE WAS A BAD, BLANK, I CAN'T SAY THAT ON TV RIGHT?

BUT SHE WAS ALSO A HUMAN BEING AND I PERSONALLY AND AGAIN, IT'S HARD TO ASK FOR EVERYTHING FROM ONE FILM.

SO PERHAPS THAT'S FOR BUT THERE'S A RISK IN FOR TRYING HER AS A SUPERHERO AND THE RISK THAT WE DON'T SEE HER FULL HUMANITY.

WHICH I THINK SHE TRIED TO DO A GOOD JOB OF BALANCING THAT.

I PERSONALLY THINK THE BALANCE FELL SLIGHTLY ON THE WRONG SIDE.

>> Crossley: I REALLY LOVED IT, I HELD MY BREATH BECAUSE I DIDN'T KNOW A LOT ABOUT HER AND I WANTED TO SEE HER -- I DON'T KNOW WHY YOU DIDN'T LIKE THE END.

MORE COULD HAVE BEEN DONE BY THE END LET ME SAY THAT.

>> I DON'T MEAN THE END, THE CHOICE, I DON'T WANT TO GIVE IT AWAY.

YOU KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT RIGHT?

>> Crossley: I WANTED TO MAKE SURE THAT WE GOT HER ACTIVITY AS A GENERAL, AS LEADING THAT RAID, ON THE RIVER, NOBODY KNOWS ABOUT, AND SHE WAS CALLED A GENERAL, SHE GOT FULL MILITARY HONORS WHEN SHE DIED!

SHE IS THE FIRST WOMAN TO LEAD THIS, SHE WAS A SPY, WENT HINDER AND ENDED UP FREEING 750 ENSLAVED PEOPLE.

THIS PERSON WAS INCREDIBLE.

AND AT THE END OF HER LIFE SETTING UP AN OLD AGE HOME AND AN INFIRMARY AND RESETTLING HER FOLKS AND GOING BACK 13 TIMES.

SO SHE ABSOLUTELY OUGHT TO BE ON THE $20 BILL.

>> ONE ALERT THOUGH, THE SOUTH LOSES THE WAR.

>> EXACTLY.

(LAUGHTER) >> L ONE CAUSE STAYS LOST.

>> Crossley: I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT THERE WERE A LOT OF BLACK WOMEN IN THE MAKING OF THE FILM.

KAY LEMONS THE DIRECTOR, KAY MARTIN CHASE ONE OF THE PRODUCERS, WHO WANTED TO PRODUCE THIS FILM AND GREGORY ALLEN HOWARD BLACK MAN WHO WROTE THE FIRST DRAFT OF IT BUT THEN WHEN MORE INFORMATION CAME UP, ADDED SOMETHING TO IT.

THEY REALLY WORKED HARD AT I. NOT TO MENTION CYNTHIA BENNETT.

GUYS PEOPLE SAID TO ME IT'S SIMPLISTIC, IT IS.

BUT PEOPLE DO NOT KNOW ANY OF THIS.

I DO NOT KNOW -- [SIMULTANEOUS SPEECH] I WANT SOMEBODY TO KNOW THE HISTORY.

>> IT SUCCEEDS, IT'S A GREAT DPLIM TO SHOW IN JUNIOR HIGH SCHOOL.

IT SHOULD BE SHOWN THERE.

[SIMULTANEOUS SPEECH] >> PEOPLE TAKE THE FILM AND DECIDES THIS IS ALL I KNEAD TO KNOW BUT THEN THEY DECIDE TO READ THE BOOKS AND FILL IN THE GAPS.

>> YOU KNOW THEY WON'T, THIS IS AMERICA.

>> Crossley: SOMETIMES IT INSPIRES PEOPLE TO PICK UP AND GO FOR IT.

>> I MEAN THERE ARE SO MANY THINGS THAT ARE PROBLEMATIC ABOUT THE FILM GLORY BUT I CAN SAY IT PROMPTED A LOT OF PEOPLE TO FIND OUT MORE ABOUT THE 54th AND MORE ABOUT BLACK MEN WHO FOUGHT IN THE CIVIL WAR.

AND MY HOPE FOR THIS FILM IS THAT IT'S THE BEGINNING AND PEOPLE WILL SEE IT AS A START.

THAT IF YOU CAN MAKE FIVE FILMS ON LINCOLN YOU CAN CERTAINLY MAKE FIVE FILMS ON HARRIET, DIFFERENT ASPECTS OF HER LIFE FOR SURE.

I DIDN'T NEED IT TO BE LIKE TRANSFORMATIVE OSCAR WORTHY, I NEED IT TO BE GOOD ENOUGH AND I COULD WORK WITH EVERYTHING ELSE AROUND IT.

I CAN UNDERSTAND THAT SIN MAT I CLI THERE ARE PLACE HE WHERE IT FAILS.

PEOPLE WHO DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT HER LIFE -- >> Crossley: I HAD CONVERSATIONS WITH YOUNG PEOPLE WHO -- AND BY THE WAY I DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT THE 54th UNTIL GLORY.

SO HERE I AM.

>> MET THE 54th WHEN THEY ARRIVED IN SOUTH CAROLINA.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

>> THAT'S RIGHT SO HERE WE ARE.

SO I COULD HAVE BEEN ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE.

>> ARE WE RELYING ON FILMS TO TEACH HISTORY?

>> Crossley: FILMS CAN LEAD YOU -- WHAT, THIS IS RIGHT HERE?

WHAT?

>> PEOPLE WILL LEARN MORE ABOUT HER LIFE IN THE FILM THAN THEY'RE GOING TO LEARN IN SCHOOL.

>> AND THAT INSIGHTS -- [SIMULTANEOUS SPEECH] >> THAT IS AN INDICTMENT OF OUR SCHOOL SYSTEM.

YLZ AND HOW MANY TIMES ARE YOU WATCHING THINGS ON TV AND YOU GO WHAT, YOU RANDOMLY LOOK IT UP.

THIS IS A JUMPING OFF POINT AND BECAUSE ALL OF THEM INVOLVED IN THIS PROJECT ARE SO DETERMINED THAT THIS STORY GET OUT MORE FULLY THAN IT HAS BEEN I DO BELIEVE THAT IT IS GOING TO LEAD PEOPLE TO DO IT.

AND IN THE CONTEXT OF 1619 ANNIVERSARY, YOU KNOW, IT'S -- NOT THAT THEY TIMED IT FOR THAT, BUT IT JUST LAND THAT WAY.

>> I ALSO THINK IT'S LAYERED THAT YOU HAVE THE FILM, THERE ARE TONS OF BOOKS AND MORE BOOKS THAT ARE ON THE WAY.

DEFINITELY THERE ARE CHILDREN'S LITERATURE, THERE ARE SO MANY DIFFERENT WAYS YOU CAN ACCESS HER AS A PERSON.

>> Crossley: WE'RE GOING TO TALK ABOUT MORE OF IT BUT RIGHT NOW, THAT IS THE END OF OUR BROADCASTS AND THE END OF OUR SHOW.

THANKS TO ALL OF OUR GUESTS AND THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

STAY WITH US RIGHT NOW AS WE CONTINUE OUR CONVERSATION ON FACEBOOK LIVE AND TWITTER.

Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org