-Would you like to feed the donkey?

-Oh, yes.

-Come on, Jojo.

[ Donkey braying ] Finish it first.

Since 1775, chaplains have supported the spiritual needs of the troops and provided counseling on military issues, family troubles, and religious matters.

In combat, I witnessed them provide comfort to the wounded as they transition from this life to the next.

-Soldiers are coming to you because they're grieving and they're not doing well.

Well, guess what?

All of those things that they're feeling, I'm feeling.

And now people are coming to my office, asking for help.

And I'm grieving.

-So, who's -- who's lifting you up?

-There is a lot of carrying it alone.

Sometimes there are chaplains there that you can talk to, who are buddies.

And the only buddy of a chaplain is another chaplain.

-People come seeking help.

They're not coming for solutions.

They're just coming for you to listen.

I had a veteran that -- who told me the other day -- He said, "I just needed somebody to listen to me and hear me out."

-Right.

-You want to feel seen?

You don't want to feel like whatever's hurting you is off limits.

♪♪♪ -Soldiers and leaders don't really care how much you know.

It boils down to whether or not you care.

They definitely want to see whether or not you can walk what you talk.

-You guys don't often have that same opportunity afforded to you.

-We're all vulnerable, and we all got weaknesses.

It's a -- It's an old saying.

Uh, some of the strongest people cry themselves to sleep at night.

So there's many tears on my pillow, because sometimes even those cares weigh on me.

-Hi.

I'm Stacy Pearsall, retired Air Force staff sergeant.

And today I'm sitting down with chaplains Addison Burgess, Khallid Shabazz, and Julie Schwartz -- three chaplains who committed their lives to God and country during and after action.

-♪ There will be light ♪ ♪♪♪ ♪ There is a road ♪ ♪♪♪ ♪ Marching on ♪ ♪♪♪ ♪ Coming home ♪ ♪♪♪ ♪♪♪ - [Presenter] Major funding for "After Action" is provided by the ETV Endowment of South Carolina.

With the generosity of individuals, corporations, and foundations, the Endowment is proud to sponsor "After Action".

♪♪♪ -Imam Shabazz, Rabbi Schwartz, and Reverend Burgess, welcome to LowCountry Acres.

I appreciate you taking the time to come all the way here to talk about faith.

-You're very welcome.

-Thank you.

-Thank you.

-What I love to do is get everyone's journey to the military.

And I think I want to start there.

You want to kick us off?

-Oh, yes.

My father was in the military, but we didn't know about it.

And he didn't necessarily want us to serve.

-Born as Michael Barnes, Imam Khallid Shabazz seemed to be headed for disaster.

After being kicked out of college and having his first child, he decided to enlist in the military.

That's when he discovered Islam, forever changing his path.

His mentor inspired him to seek a commission in the chaplaincy, where he has since risen to the rank of colonel and is the first Muslim brigade chaplain in Army history.

-And as I told many people, I like to be transparent about my life.

My journey started at 10 years old, being molested by a family friend.

And because of that molestation, special education in the eighth grade, failed the 9th, 10th, and 12th grade.

Later on, caused a lot of trouble in my life.

Shot in the back, expelled from school, and went to jail twice.

And I was just at rock bottom.

So I decided that I needed to do something with my life.

And so I decided to come in the military.

I hadn't -- hadn't dealt with the molestation.

So, in the military, within the first year, I had two Article 15s chapter paperwork in hand.

And "chapter" meaning I'm getting put out of the military.

And a leader, a sergeant major, decided to intervene in my life, and be my mentor.

And because he was my mentor, obviously, I'm sitting here today, but that was my journey to the military.

-That was not a very short journey.

-No.

-It had to be an arduous time for you.

-Very difficult because of so much -- so much pain.

Um, and... you know, the authority figures in your life, who are there to protect you, failed in that mission.

And because of that, a very tough time trusting authority.

And that's why I was being thrown out of the military.

That's why I got thrown out of school.

And so a lot of self-doubt, um, self-worth, and poor self-esteem problems, which caused me to drink myself at sleep at night.

And so anytime, uh, anybody looked at me for more than three seconds, I just, you know -- I'm ashamed about it now, but I would just beat them to a pulp.

And that's how I end up getting myself shot.

Um, guys were waiting on me outside of the club and waited till I came out, and shot me, beat me with a shovel.

Um, and I was -- I almost lost my life at 21.

-Well, I'm glad you made it through that journey.

-Yeah.

-And I know you've got a lot more to share.

-Yes.

-But I want to dig into your story, Rabbi Schwartz.

Can I -- Can we agree to go by first names?

Is that okay with everybody?

-Absolutely -Perfect.

Julie, tell me a little bit about your story.

-My older brother was in the Coast Guard during Vietnam.

And that's as close as anybody in Ohio, I think, ever comes to the Navy.

So I didn't know -- I had nobody who I really knew who was military.

-When Julie Schwartz was commissioned as a Navy chaplain in 1986, she became the first female Jewish rabbi in Department of Defense history.

During her time as a hospital chaplain, she provided comfort for the sick and counseled their families.

As she shouldered their burdens, she carried her own.

She held fast in her conviction that God was working through her to help others, regardless of their own beliefs.

-I was in Israel for my first year of seminary, and I looked around and I saw all of these young people carrying their weapons and doing their tours.

And I just felt like I was missing something.

They felt connected to their country.

They felt like they were part of the country in a way that I never felt.

And I thought, "I think there's a reason to serve."

So I went back and found out that they could use rabbis to be chaplains, and they needed a woman who would stand up and be first.

-So, you were the first female rabbi.

-First woman rabbi in the in the military, on active duty?

Yep.

-Wow.

Addison?

-So, I don't think the military was on my scope when I got ready to go off to college.

I just wanted a different environment.

Grew up very poor, um, single parent.

The oldest out of five.

The oldest son.

Started working in the tobacco field at the age of 10 to help mom take care of the kids.

And so, when I graduated from high school, I was told that I would never get into a college because of my grades.

-Addison Burgess is an African Methodist Episcopal Church reverend, Veterans Affairs chaplain, and retired Army colonel who has been providing pastoral care and counseling to the military and veteran community since 1997.

As an Iraq War veteran, his firsthand knowledge has helped guide his VA chaplain ministry and has shepherded combat veterans through crises of faith.

-And so I applied to this private university there in Orangeburg and got accepted into the school.

And I got into the ROTC program, not because I wanted to do military, because I was looking for other means of finance to pay my rent.

And I was told that I needed to go to basic training in order to join the program.

And so that summer, I went to basic training, which was in Fort Knox, Kentucky.

I think I got recycled twice because [Chuckles] I just could not get with the program.

But there were some folks there that really saw potential, and I graduated from the program, went back to the university, got into the ROTC program, and got commissioned back in '90 as a chemical officer, and pursued that in the National Guard for eight years.

And then I went into the Chaplain Corps back in '97.

So that was my journey.

-Wow.

Khallid, how did you end up in the Chaplains Corps?

-You know, I started trying to find myself.

And in the process of trying to find myself, I watched the movie "Malcolm X," and I saw the movie "Malcolm X," and as you -- anybody would know, he had an eighth-grade education.

And eighth grade is where my trouble started.

So I found a kinship with him in a strange way.

And I decided to research him.

And I found this guy named Muhammad Ali.

And I was so enthralled with him, I said, "Whatever he is, I want to be."

And so I converted to Islam.

And I'm sitting in the field environment one day.

A chaplain was off in the distance.

And I got to be honest with you.

I said, "If there is a God --" because at this point, I don't know -- "please don't have the chaplain come over and talk to me."

I mean, honestly, that's -- I don't -- that's all I would need in my life, for this guy to come and talk to me and try to convert me back and, you know, be a thorn in my side.

And as God would have it, the chaplain came over and talked to me, and he ministered to me for an hour about life.

And he said, "Oh, my God, you're so intelligent.

Why don't you become a Muslim chaplain for guys like you?"

And I'll tell you, the whole universe stopped.

And I'm not being dramatic.

The whole universe stopped.

And then I said to myself, "That's my purpose.

I'm going to come in and be a chaplain and help everybody that I can."

That chaplain is Chaplain Harlon Triplett which was his mentor.

Did you know that?

-Yeah.

-Yeah, his mentor was my battalion chaplain.

And that guy came over to me, a person not of his faith.

But he was a devout Christian and told me and gave me a mission to help young Muslim soldiers like myself.

-Wow.

-It's amazing.

-He was a real chaplain?

-Yes, a real chaplain.

-Yeah, very comfortable in his faith, too, for sure.

-Well, I mean, speaking of supporting people of your faith, Julie, it was not an easy, um, feat to become the first female rabbi in the military.

Can you tell me about that journey a little bit?

-Yeah.

I didn't realize how it was going to be.

I kind of thought, "Well, I want to do this, and I'll just do it right, and everything will be fine."

And then I understood, you know, that the chaplains who were already there, the members of the Jewish Welfare Board, who were Reform rabbis, which is what I was becoming, explained that there had never been a woman commissioned as -- to go on to active duty -- never in the Navy for sure -- and that they wanted me to go Navy because we had the most number of -- the largest number of Reform rabbis in the Navy, so they felt that would be helpful to me and helpful in making the -- getting the -- the passage of the endorsement.

You have to be endorsed by a religious body.

You know, you get a commission based on all the commission responsibilities or requirements, and you get an endorsement as a religious leader.

-I never knew that.

-Yeah, you have to have two.

So, and the endorser for Jews had always been the Jewish Welfare Board, and they endorsed all Reform, Conservative, and Orthodox rabbis.

But they didn't want to commission me.

They didn't want to endorse me, rather, as a woman rabbi.

The Orthodox had never done that.

And so there was a big problem with it.

-Yes.

-And my commission got held up and my medical exam got lost a couple of times.

-Do you think that was intentional?

-Yes.

-I think so.

I had to go back and do it again.

If there's anything you don't want to do again, it's that first med -- you know, that first exam.

Went through that, waited, waited, waited.

And they kept telling me, "Just be cool, Julie.

It's going to all work out."

And I was waiting, I was ordained, I was ready, I was waiting for orders.

And where was I going to go?

I mean, all the exciting stuff.

Everybody else knew where they were going.

And they -- it was okay to have me in chaplain school, because then I wasn't really a rabbi.

They were sure I would hate it and I'd go away.

-Mm-hmm.

-Mm.

-But I loved it and wanted to come back.

-Wow.

-And so they -- I was taking a nap in Cincinnati and had nothing else to do because I'm still waiting.

And I got a call from a reporter from the New York Times, who said, "Do you und-- Did you know that you have just broken up the Jewish Welfare Board because of your, you know, decision to be endorsed?"

And I said, "I don't know what you're talking about, and I don't think I should be talking to you."

And got off really fast and called my contact on the Jewish Welfare Board, who said, "You did that right," and explained that they had -- they had come to a kind of a stalemate.

And the Reform movement said, "We have been holding endorsing ability that we can do without the Jewish Welfare Board."

-Mm-hmm.

-"So we'll just go ahead and endorse her if you won't endorse her."

And then the Orthodox representatives walked out of the meeting.

They said, "You've ruined it.

This is it."

And then the other groups all walked out.

And in the hallway, they made a new deal, which was to come back with a different name, the Jewish Chaplains Council, Jewish Welfare Board, and they would no longer require people of a different movement to endorse the candidate.

They would all sign, but the endorsement only is a rabbi -- only came from your own particular movement.

-Amazing.

-And it all got sorted out.

And you know, it meant nothing to me.

I'm laying at home, taking a nap on the couch.

-[ Chuckles ] -But it was a journey that I didn't have any idea was going to be just like that.

-I mean, think about the number of women... -Yes, yes.

-...whose lives you changed just in sitting on -- taking a nap on the couch.

-Absolutely.

-So good for you for sticking it out.

-[ Chuckles ] -What does it take to be a chaplain?

Can you dive into that a little bit, Addison?

-Well, I was a recruiter.

I recruit for the Chaplain Corps.

I did that for three years.

I was stationed at Fort Meade.

I look for a call.

I look for passion, conviction.

And then I also look to make sure that they meet all the educational requirements.

-What are those?

-Well, you have to have an undergrad degree... -Mm-hmm.

-...from accredited school and also a master of divinity in any type of religious studies from an accredited divinity school also, too.

And then you have to have at least two years as a full-time pastor of a church.

And you also have to be able to pass a physical.

And usually that's what gets a lot of folks when it comes to the physical piece, because you can't have any serious underlying health issues in order to come in.

So it's very difficult in getting quality.

You got a lot of folks wants to be chaplains, but when you take them down the checklist and tell them all the things that they must accomplish in order to become a candidate -- because once you become one, you still have to be assessed into either the Guard or Reservists or active duty.

And so you have a board that convene and they look at your files.

-And the reason why that health physical is so important, because if you notice, chaplains are older, because by the time we come to this decision, I mean, the minimum age, I think I was 32.

So that's why that health physical is so important, because we had a Catholic chaplain at our basic training that was 51.

-Mm.

Wow.

-Yeah.

-Okay.

-And so, by that, it's not only a master's in divinity, that is equivalent to 72 hours -- it's like two master's degrees -- plus you have to have the two years that he's talking about before you go back to active duty.

So most of us are older.

Yeah.

-Yeah, I got a -- We got waivers because they needed rabbis so much that we didn't have to have the two years.

And in some ways, it was wonderful because we really got all the training we needed once we were on active duty.

People were right there to mentor and to guide more than I think I would have gotten if I'd been out in the civilian world, in a very different world... -Yeah.

-...to be ready for the military.

So it worked in my favor.

-What's required of chaplains on the day-to-day, in the military sense?

-I was a hospital chaplain.

-Difference.

-Yeah, it depends where you're placed.

-Yes, it's a difference.

All of us pretty much do the same thing, if they would agree.

We counsel, we assess, we do use preventive strategies to ensure that people feel comfortable with us enough to come and talk to us.

And as you know, we're all different faiths.

So the Chaplain Corps itself has something called "perform or provide."

So if a soldier of a different faith doesn't feel comfortable with me -- let's just say they're Jewish -- I would send them over to the rabbi.

Or if he's Christian, then I would send him over to the Christian chaplain.

But chaplains are facilitators, right?

And in that respect, we try to do everything we can, whether it's marriage retreats, anything that we can do to ensure that those soldiers have access to us.

Because most oftentimes, if not all the time, we're the most educated people in the Army, right?

And we're old enough.

We usually around the same age as that commander.

And so we have life skills that most of the soldiers don't have, and commanders.

-And you have to also keep in mind, too, not only we are pastors, but we also are staff officers, too.

And so there are a lot of things that when it comes to physical fitness, one thing that could kill the credibility of who you are is not being able to maintain your physical fitness, because soldiers look at you.

-That's right.

-And it only takes one time falling out of a PT formation or run, you will be sitting before the commander, trying to explain what's going on with you.

-It seems like people want to separate church and state.

So, you know, chaplaincy in the military, how do those two come together?

Why is it so important to have it?

-Well, first of all, it's one of the rights you have when you're now in the military and you're away from home, but you have a right to observe free observance of your faith, and you need support for that.

You don't lose all your civil liberties when you go into the military.

You're still entitled to that opportunity to practice your faith the way that you do.

And that means that we need to be around to make that happen.

-And I think education is a big piece of that as -- especially when the war first started out, you saw a lot of people being more religious, when it comes to their faith and what they believe.

Because I remember, when we went into Iraq, my commander was not a big religious-type guy.

He was more about the mission.

We start losing soldiers.

And chapel service was around 40 members in attendance.

And when we lost the first four soldiers that we all knew very well, there was no standing room in worship service.

And so you begin to start seeing people that who was looking for hope begin to start coming to service more often and practicing their faith.

-Well, there's always that adage that there are no atheists in foxholes.

Whether it's that camaraderie of faith or something -- having a belief that there is a higher power or a next life, what part or what role does that play in getting through combat traumas like that downrange?

-When you talked about the role of faith, there's a dichotomy here that I don't want to miss... -Mm-hmm.

-...because whatever the chaplain's faith is -- he mentioned soldiers dying -- -Mm-hmm.

-Right?

That camaraderie that you talked about, if you get a camaraderie with your soldiers, you know, doing the memorial service -- memorial ceremony -- there's a difference between the ceremony and the service.

So, usually downrange, we have a ceremony.

So, no matter what the soldier's faith is.

Oh, by the way, we have a Muslim chaplain doing a ceremony for a service member.

And the whole unit is there looking.

We have a rabbi... -Mm-hmm.

-...doing a memorial ceremony for a soldier that's the Christian faith.

Because when you talk about faith itself, I think we are people who exhibit faith... -Mm-hmm.

-...without proselytizing faith.

-Well, it's also about being a role model of faith.

It's not "What is my particular faith about?"

but "What does faith do for me?

How does it sustain me?"

And if I can kind of model that for others, they can find the way to what they need to be... -Yeah.

-...who they're supposed to be.

It's not about me deciding for them.

It's about them figuring it out.

-Yeah.

-Well, I know, like, for me, downrange, that's where I kind of discovered faith was so much more complex.

-Yes.

-It wasn't just being identified as a Christian or being identified as Jewish or Muslim or anything like that.

For me, it was faith in my brothers and sisters and getting through that experience together.

Faith that they will do what's right and watch my six, and I will do the same for them, and faith that we could get through that together and have that trust.

And I think those sort of... -Hope, trust, all of those.

-Yeah.

So, how did you go about instilling hope, trust, and faith in what you did as chaplains, whether you were in the Hospital Corps or you were downrange?

-I think it's about the human connection.

When you have that type of human connection, whatever your faith, whatever your gender, whatever you particularly believe, that connection, at least for me -- I don't know about my chaplain brother and sister here -- that gives that hope, that gives that trust, that gives that person who is coming to you, who knows that you're going to have their back, and part of the chaplain responsibility is, we call it "speaking truth to power."

-Mm-hmm.

-I go in, she goes in, he goes in to advocate to the commander on behalf of that soldier, not religiously all the time.

We do have religious accommodations.

But, you know, if that soldier is in trouble, you know, I write letters of character all the time because I've been in counseling with this soldier for four or five months, and I can say, "Well, this soldier is reforming based upon my time with them."

Okay?

And depending on your level with the commander and the soldiers, he'll take a strong consideration of that.

-Yes.

-You go to -- Pardon me.

-Go ahead.

-We go to captain's mast in the Navy.

You go to the court that's held in the particular unit or wherever you're stationed.

So I'd go to captain's mast for people I'd been working with and say, I know this sailor messed up, but this is what I see in that person.

This is why we're going to help him get out of that place."

And on the other side, I'm saying to the sailor, "For goodness' sakes, give yourself another chance.

They are much bigger than you are.

Don't, you know, make trouble with these folks."

But you go to the command and you say, "This is what we need to be doing to help this sailor become who he can be."

-And I think, too, that soldiers and leaders don't really care how much you know.

It boils down to whether or not you care.

-Mm-hmm.

-And when they see that you're a person with compassion, that you're a person who is going to be responsible, who's going to be accountable, but also who's going to be effective as a servant leader when it comes to representing them, but also when it comes to providing whatever they need.

But they definitely want to see whether or not you can walk what you talk.

And when they see that, you win them over.

-It sounds like you guys are dealing with so much politicking, too, at the same time.

Trying to balance everything, that's got to be really hard.

-We don't really fit in anywhere.

We're officers, but we're not -- we're not the line officers.

-Well, you're not combatant either.

-Noncombatants.

We, you know, can't carry a weapon.

And we are supposed to be there on behalf of the human beings we're serving and on behalf of the God that gives us faith.

But it doesn't fit into -- That doesn't fit into the chain of command exactly.

-I see my role as the kicker on the football team.

Like, nobody even know you exist, right?

But if you're doing your job right, at the end of the game, when the game is on the line, 2 seconds left, you have an opportunity to make that team win, right?

Nobody is checking on the chaplain.

-No.

-Nobody cares where you are because they expect you to be a responsible human being, working your craft, taking care of your soldiers.

So when we have -- when they have a problem, they're going to call in the subject-matter expert.

And I'm going to kick that ball through that goal, and my team is going to win.

-Mm-hmm.

-So, who's lifting you up?

-Well, I think that... -Netflix.

-...the work we do, though, does lift us up.

-Sometimes, yeah, sometimes.

-It's always hard, and you don't do it to get the good out of it.

But if you're doing it well, you do get the good out of it.

You get to share in what happens, you get to look at the score and say, "I was there in my job."

-But it's overwhelming, too.

-You get exhausted.

-It's exhausting.

-Yeah.

-I know our chaplains downrange were there for every loss of life.

And that was critical to that period of time for me.

Was there ever a time as your time as a chaplain that maybe tested your own personal faith?

-Yes.

During the war, we were gone for a year, but they decided that they were going to extend us from a year to 16 months, 15 months.

-Mm-hmm.

15.

-15 months, right.

And, so, soldiers are coming to you because they're grieving.

Soldiers are coming to you because they miss their families.

Soldiers are coming to you because they have marital problems and they're not doing well.

Well guess what?

All of those things that they're feeling, I'm feeling, right?

Problems at home, grief.

I'm not doing well.

First of all, like she said, nobody's hanging out with the chaplain, by the way.

The chaplain -- Nobody's hanging out with the chaplain as friends.

We're just kind of hanging around each other.

No, we're by ourselves.

And, so, I got to process all those feelings by myself.

And now people are coming to my office asking for help, and I'm grieving.

Yeah, that's -- that's my biggest memory out of that time.

And I gotta put my big boy tennis shoes on and go in the office and cry, and then come out of there and take care of them, because nobody wants to hear that the chaplain has problems.

-Yeah, but you're a human being, right?

-Yeah, yeah.

-It's so easy for people to forget, I guess.

-But it looks down upon as being weak.

Yeah.

-Yes, yes.

-And, so, yes, I remember, when we were in Iraq and I met four Marines and they were excited about, outside the wire, they set up a little chapel.

And they were very young, too.

18 and I think one was 19, 17.

But they were so excited that we was in the gym lifting weights.

And these guys was like buff.

And they was just going at it.

"Hey, Chap.

So when you come out to Outside the Wire Chapel, I want you to come over and worship with us because the Lord is really doing great things there," and so on and so on and so on.

And I'm thinking in the back of my mind, first of all, the commander is not going to let me outside without, you know -- without, you know, going out with a convoy.

But I looked at them and I told them that I will visit them.

-Hmm.

-And around 2:00 that morning, I got a knock on the door and said that the commander needs you to come to his office.

And so I got dressed and went to the office, was told that a convoy that was going out got hit and four Marines died.

-Mm.

-I said, "Names?"

And when he told me the names, it was those four Marines that said, "Hey, Chaplain"... -Wow.

-..."I want you to come out and visit our little chapel when you get time, when you go outside the wire."

The only thing that brought some consolation to me, that kept me together -- because I almost fell out in front of the team -- is knowing that they had faith, and they had some type of relationship with what they was believing in.

That's the only thing that held me together.

-Wow.

-Um... -Thank you for sharing that.

Did you grieve in that time?

Or did you have delayed grief?

Or have you processed it?

-Very delayed grief.

I couldn't in front of the team.

-That's right.

-Because they were grieving.

The commander was lost for words.

He didn't have anything to say.

He said, "What do we do next, Chaplain?"

Usually that's the case.

Commanders are very good at doing their job.

But when it comes to death and dying, we are the subject matter expert they look at.

So my grief was very delayed and I couldn't take part of the memorial service.

I asked to be -- I asked, could I be excused from taking part?

Because the grief is real heavy.

-But you have to be ready to take care of yourself.

You have to be in that kind of good spiritual form.

You have to, you know, be prepared for that.

It doesn't mean you're going to get through everything very easily, but you've got to know you've got some storage, you've got some extra strength there.

Sometimes there are chaplains there that you can talk to who are buddies.

And the only buddy of a chaplain is another chaplain.

-We're asking the same question as everybody else is asking -- "God, like, why?"

-Why?

-Like why?

These are kids.

Like, these are good people.

Why?

-Breaks all the rules.

-Breaks all the rules.

And, so, you're sitting alone in your own grief.

You're asked to be strong.

You're asked to be spiritual.

And, oh, by the way, after that, we got to do critical incident debriefings.

So we're going back into that trauma where everybody's looking at you to be strong.

And, so, you got people who are friends of those who are coming to you, who are, I mean, absolutely in shambles.

-Mm-hmm.

-I was doing a counseling one day of this young woman, and she was trying to decide whether she was going to stay in the military or not.

And pretty much convinced her... ...to stay in the military.

So the road that she goes to to do the re-enlistment, a freaking bomb dropped on that thing and -- and killed her.

So... who you talk to about that?

That was my advice.

Who -- I told her to go there.

Who do you talk to about that?

No.

You sit in your room and cry.

Right?

Because you're doing the right thing for her and her family, but fate intervened.

I can't go to the commander crying.

I'm his rock.

I'm her rock.

-Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

-Some of the strongest people in the morning cry themselves to sleep at night.

That's chaplains.

We're in shambles most time.

And that's why, in my humble opinion, once we get out of military, most of us don't -- we leave the ministry.

-Do you find that's true?

-Yes, that's very true.

So many chaplains leave the ministry, don't attend church.

For what reasons?

I just don't know.

I was just one that -- who knew that I had a lot of stuff.

And I took some time off, and I went and enrolled in CPE.

-What's that?

-Clinical pastoral education.

-Okay.

-Hospital ministry.

Which helped me begin to really see exactly who I was and what was behind the hardness, the right presentation outward.

But on the inside, you're hurting, you're crying.

I had to give my peers permission to see me not as the colonel, but see me as Addison.

-Mm.

-Mm-hmm.

-And they were able to recognize and help me see some blind spots that I was overlooking, that I knew that was there, but I didn't want no one to talk to me about.

-So that's what I came out of the military and did.

-Okay.

-I found my next vocation as a teacher of CPE.

-Mm.

-Okay.

-I was so taken with hospital ministry and the connections with people and the ability to work with folks of different faiths and be there and offer the support that they needed, the reinvestment in their own faith that they needed.

-Do you find because being so open to so many that you have to build that wall and that barrier sort of emotionally?

And how do you balance that with your relationship with God?

-Mm.

-I could put a good poker face on as though things are fine.

But, you know, when the lights are off, I cry out to God and I know that it's only God who has helped me thus far.

-Well, if we just verbalized it... -Mm-hmm.

-...if we could just say it, then we don't have to be struggling alone in it.

Right?

-To be vulnerable is to tell the truth.

-It's hard.

-It's to be all present, fully present.

-It's hard to do that.

-You have to know you'll be accepted when you tell the truth.

-You might not be.

-Yeah.

And then, folks will judge.

-Yeah.

-And sometime being open and expressing what you feel can either cause you your job... -Yes.

That's correct.

-...your position, your family.

-That's right.

-But you have to be willing to give some things up.

You have to be willing to risk and possibly lose if you want to be fully present.

You have the right for privacy, but if you have to keep secrets, then you're going to always be having a lot on your shoulders you don't need.

-I agree, it's just, you know, you come from a culture -- I'm speaking of African-American culture here -- where we didn't come from fathers, we didn't know what a father is most times.

I have my father in my life now, which is great.

But, you know, not knowing and not being able to navigate.

And then everybody is telling you what a man is supposed to be, right?

And you go to somebody, tell them you've been molested.

That's a nonstarter.

-Mm-hmm.

-Because first of all, the whole world is going to tease you from our culture.

Right?

And, so, I would never say that.

And then, 33 or 34 years old, it slipped out, and I promised myself I would never say it.

Right?

And, so, you got so many men who are suffering because we have this pseudo ideal of what a man is supposed to be.

And that is absolutely never show weakness.

-It's a mixed message, though.

-I was having a conversation with another guy -- a guy the other day, and I was telling him -- and I know he admires me -- and I tell him, you know, he said, "Why do you work out so much?"

I said, "Because I struggle with depression."

And you know what?

You know what he did?

You could see the air deflate out of him.

-Mm-hmm.

-Like, "Not you."

-Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

-"You're my hero."

-Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah.

-But despite that, you keep doing it.

I mean, I think that's where the strength comes.

That's where the risk is worth it.

-Of course.

But I mean -- -First he had to deflate, and then he could go back and look at you the second time and say, "But you're still here, you're still up every day."

-Yeah.

That's 20 years of courage, right?

It took me a long time to get there.

My grandmother used to say -- And I didn't know what she was talking about.

Now I'm older, I know.

She says, "Truth out of season don't bring no harvest.

-Yeah, yeah.

-Right?

And, so, these young folks that we're dealing with, they need to see strength first.

-I learned that in working at the VA, because I work with so many men in particular, my population there, of men who has addictions, and a lot of it is a lot of pain behind their addiction.

But when I give them permission to tell me what the tears are about, tell me why you're looking that way, tell me why you need the alcohol, the drug, but when I give them that permission to tell their story, to walk with them as they share their story, and not only walk with them, but as they share it, recognize things that are happening and pause for a moment and ask them, "What was the tear about that you just shared?"

-Mm.

-And once you give them that freedom to express, it's like buckets of water.

And it's really -- Medication is good.

Treatment is good.

But that's probably the best cleansing for most men when they can really cry and just really express how much they are hurting on the inside.

And I cry with them, too, you know?

-That helps.

-Yeah, because you connect with them.

Because you see so much of pain and there's nothing you really can do to take it away.

But if you can get them to at least trust the space that they're in and really express what's on their mind, you're helping them move towards real total healing when it comes to what's going on in their lives.

-God gives us the ability to be free.

Free will within limits, right?

And, so, for me, I pride myself on being a little free.

I pride myself on pushing the limits a little bit as the chaplain.

Right?

I pride myself on not being this super conservative religious guy who, when you come in my office, I'm going to throw 10,000 Scriptures at you.

No, I'm in the gym with you.

I'm on the Internet with you.

I am where you are and I don't have sensitive ears when you're talking your talk.

And, so, that's how my relationship with God -- I think I started off way too conservative.

I was driving myself crazy and everybody around me and I found myself saying to myself, "How do I reach these people?"

-Mm-hmm.

-Be with them.

Be with them.

That's how I learned to love football.

-Oh, yeah?

-Because I'd go visiting -- -The New Orleans Saints?

-No, no, not that.

-[ Laughing ] -No, I'd go on Sunday mornings, on Sunday afternoons to visit in the hospital, do my pastoral calls.

And those days, the old days, they were four-man rooms.

And I go in and they're all watching football, and I'd sit with them and watch football with them and, you know, say, "Well, now explain that to me," or "Tell me about that," which, you know, every man loves to tell you what they know.

-That's right.

100%.

-And then, after I sat there a little while, then somebody'd say, "Chaplain, can I talk to you?

I'd really like to talk to you about something."

-Yes.

Absolutely.

-Because I joined them first.

And the faith piece that we share is that notion that we're created in the image of God.

There's something holy that we can share together.

And that's -- that changes everything.

And I love football, too.

So it worked out good.

-Was there ever, in your time as a hospital chaplain, a time when your faith was tested, Julie?

- I will tell you that there was a wonderful young doctor, African-American woman.

She was an ER doc, and she came to the end of her -- of her contract and she didn't want to stay anymore.

She'd had enough.

She wore argyle socks during inspection just to see if she could get away with it.

And she always did.

-Mm.

-In uniform?

-In uniform, yes.

Just to see, could she pull it off?

Because doctors are a different breed in the military.

So she wasn't coming back.

She was done.

Three days after she finished her contract, she went skydiving and she died.

So all the young doctors who were, you know, trained with her are looking at themselves, saying, "How can I be alive, too?"

And it was hard.

I kept seeing them coming to my office saying, "How can I be alive if she isn't?"

And it hurts.

And, you know, I don't have an answer.

I just know we are alive and we'll keep helping each other.

But you have to mourn it yourself, too.

-Yeah.

I think one of the hardest things that -- that still haunts me now is that, when you get ready to go on a deployment and you are gathered with the family outside just before their spouses get on the bus.

-Mm.

-And you look at spouses, and they know who you are.

And they say, "Chaplain, please bring my husband back home."

And when you go forward, something happened to several husbands, spouses, and they die.

And trying to prepare yourself to return back.

Because they're going to be there.

And you can remember that conversation just as though it was yesterday.

"Chaplain, please bring my husband back home."

And I had a kid who said, "What happened to my daddy?"

And I couldn't do nothing but just grab her and hold her.

So that's -- that's hard.

-You play a parental role in many ways in guiding young servicemen and women through this military experience.

Or you did.

And now, maybe in your instance, veterans and other chaplains, in your case, Julie.

So, how important is having your own support network outside of that sphere to your success in what you're doing?

-You know how quiet is because you can only put so much on other people.

There is a lot of carrying it alone.

I think the best is to go find yourself a really good counselor that you pay to listen to you, who may not understand everything you're talking about, especially if they're not have military connections, but they understand what it is to be human.

You have to reach out to the folks that aren't going to be more hurt by what's going on than helped.

You can't keep going back to the same well all the time.

-I tried that with -- when I first started out as a chaplain.

Tried to use my wife as a source of just bouncing things off.

Which was way too much for her.

-Yes.

Yes.

-And immediately somebody told me, "You need to find a mentor, somebody who could, not so much give you solutions, but listen to what's going on in your life and your ministry."

And, so, I had to safeguard home and separate work from family because it was way too much for the family to deal with.

-So I just did like Addison, at first, tried to get my wife to listen.

But it was just -- It's just too much.

It's overwhelming.

And that's not her field.

Right?

And, so, I tried it with a couple of people, but they were a different faith.

And I felt, whether it's true or not, they were pushing me away.

Right?

For whatever reason.

And then, once I got that feeling, I just went inside.

Right?

And I deal with it the best way I can deal with it.

Like we just said earlier, you know, I just -- I'm in the gym.

I mean, it's like people think I'm insane, but I'm in the gym twice a day to ensure that my mental health stays good.

Because if I can get up in the morning -- I get up at about 3:30 in the morning.

I can't go at 6:30 because the soldiers are in there and then soldiers want to talk to me.

So I go at 3:30 in the morning when I'm in the gym by myself.

And, so, I can -- if I can get up every morning and accomplish something, I feel like I'm at least sustaining my mental health.

And then, in the evening, I go again so I'm not just sitting alone with my thoughts.

All right?

So I just -- All day.

It is ambition, but it's ambitiously getting away from my trauma.

-So much of what we are built from, from youth, you know, our parents instill in us this morality and this moral compass.

And, you know, I know, for me, some of what I went through downrange was directly in conflict with my moral compass.

And I'm curious if any of you have dealt with counseling service members or veterans through that sort of moral injury?

-A lot of people go downrange with an idealistic view of what they think is supposed to happen.

And it's not -- it's incongruent with their values.

-Mm-hmm.

-Right?

-We talked about earlier, I have to write sometimes conscientious objection for Muslim soldiers who are going in the Middle East who don't want to fight against other Muslims.

Right?

And so that's a moral injury.

So what do you do when they have to go, when it's disapproved?

When those soldiers come back, we get into some deep counseling for years, and that moral injury, from a religious perspective, has to be dealt with, I mean, total repentance and forgiveness over a long period of time because that person thinks that they have wronged their God.

-Mm-hmm.

And I remember when we were down in -- I had a maybe a dozen soldiers.

Ramadan was -- Season of Ramadan was in, and I had one commander that just didn't want to support.

And I think those three soldiers really struggled trying to uphold their duties and responsibility.

But because of their fasting, one of the soldiers got sick.

-Mm-hmm.

-And he was Muslim.

And, so, that really brought a lot of light to that command.

Because when they did the investigation, it was because the commander did not support the soldier practicing Ramadan.

Yeah.

-I don't have any stories from war, but I have stories from kind of the day to day when we were in a period where we were not honest about people's sexuality and we made them pariahs.

And then -- And I really struggled with myself to come into the military and not agree with that -- that -- that command.

It's when the daily words don't meet the reality.

Those are the sorts of things that still keep me up.

-Mm.

So what can evolve?

What can change to make it a better environment, to make it less of a conflict morally?

-It's not the military's job to fix all of this.

It's the society's job.

-Mm.

-We have to get healthy in the society, and then we're going to have a military that reflects that same health.

-Good point.

-I've experienced a lot of interactions with chaplains over the course of my military career and most especially as a veteran and being in the VA because of health issues.

I recently had a really bad health scare and was in the ICU and feeling really quite alone and... the chaplain walked in.

And I don't know if one of the nurses might have called him and just realized how alone and how helpless I felt.

And... he came in and he said, "Can I pray with you?"

I hadn't prayed to God in a while.

-Mm.

-And I didn't know I needed that so much.

-Mm.

-So...

So he laid hands on me, and we said a prayer together.

And I thought about all the times that the chaplains had touched me in my life over the course of my really low points.

And I thought, I'm sorry I never thanked them.

So thank you.

-Thank you for sharing.

-Thank you for sharing.

-And I guarantee you, there are countless other service members who will look back and say, "I'm so glad that chaplain touched my life.

I can't remember their name, but thank you."

-Thank you.

-So, to all the chaplains out there... on behalf of the military veterans at large, thank you for your service.

-You're welcome.

-You're very welcome.

♪♪♪ -♪ There will be light ♪ ♪ There is a road ♪ ♪ Marching on ♪ ♪ Coming home ♪ ♪♪♪ ♪♪♪