-What's up everyone?

-I'm Myra Flynn, -host and executive producer -of the Vermont public -podcast Homegoings.

-And I'm here today -with Kiah Morris.

-Who is so many things: -She's a Vermonter, -!a former state representative, -activist and equity -consultant.

-You wear all the hats.

-She's also been a guest on -our show before: Homegoings.

-So welcome, Kiah.

-Thank you, Myra.

-Today were -discussing the made here -film backlash: misogyny -in the digital age.

-The film tells the shocking -story of four women leaders -whose lives were overturned -by cyber violence.

-Kiah, you were one of those -women featured in this film.

-Yes.

Yes.

-It was an intense experience.

-And what was -interesting about it -is that -as they were telling -the stories -and the different ways -that cyber violence -!was showing up for these women -across the globe, -there were some of us -!who it went from being sort of -in just this liminal state -of the internet -to becoming real, -like corporally, -it happens within reality, -and the violence moves -from a space -of theoretic terrorism -to real life -harassment and danger.

-I want to talk to you -a little bit about this, -!like nuanced intersectionality -of this story, -!because this film is very much -focused on the cyber violence -and attacks against women.

-But you are holding a couple -different titles here, right, -in identity.

-you are a Black woman.

-I mean, it's difficult to not -see like throughout the film, -you are the only like, deeply -melanated, -woman -!who is being interviewed here.

-And I sometimes -personally just struggle -with that intersectionality -when I'm like, oh, feminism -is not even for me -because it takes so often -takes a backseat -to the harm and the pain -that comes at me racially.

-And, you know, -one of your abusers said, -you know, I hate Kiah Morris, -and it's not because of -the color of her skin.

-Is that true?

-Did you did you buy that?

-Never.

-Never.

Not once, not once.

-We already -know that Black -!women are the least protected.

-it has been, -I believe it was Malcolm X -who said that the black woman -is the least respected -!and least protected individual -in the United States.

-This is a reality.

-Our lives, our personhood -are not deemed as less human.

-And that messaging is one -that has lasted -and resonated for centuries.

-It is difficult to unpack, -and it can be almost -triggered back into reality -if no one questions it.

-!The individuals who were there -who started this, -recognizing -that it was a national group, -a national hate organization -that signaled -what is going on here -in this liberal state -that this black woman -is representing -this white community.

-How dare she?

-The audacity of doing so.

-How dare she come here -and try to make change?

-It was an easy fit to be able -to say, and she's coming.

-!And she's not just, disrupting -our bucolic way of life.

-She's coming to take -your guns.

-She came from Chicago, -that horrible city -that birthed Barack Obama, -that then, you know, -she's here and has -been sent through them -to come -and change our way of life.

-And so much coded -language too -about not being from Vermont, -not being a Vermonter.

-Correct.

-And what is a real Vermonter?

-Correct.

-It was it -!it was always there was always -an element of race -that cannot be ignored.

-It is a reality -that in the years -since of my experience -with this, -there have been -so many black women -who have chosen to run -for elected office, -take on appointed seats, -and have stepped down -in short time -!because the risk to themselves -and their families were not -!worth, they were not worth it.

-The passion -they had for the communities, -the contributions -they wanted to make, -were not enough.

-That altruism was, -at the end of the day, -not going to be enough.

-No one should have to martyr -themselves.

-!And black women are an obvious -physical, visible target.

-I think it's hard -not to notice in the opening -credits of this film that -the creators of this film -decided -explicitly not to interview -any of the abusers, -to hear their side -of the story, -because they really wanted to -amplify the voices of women, -!the women who are in this film -in particular, like yours.

-And I wonder how that sat -with you or sits with you.

-and then also, -just like -if you were to hear -from these people -and they were to like, -apologize, for instance, -is that even anything -that you would want to hear.

-Yeah.

-So that's -a complicated component -of this type of storytelling -and trying -to speak these truths.

-The reality is, -the work of these abusers -is to dehumanize.

-There is no counterpoint -from when they're -posting their hate.

-There is no counterpoint -of them -saying, well, -but she's she's a mom.

-And so, -you know, as a person, we, -you know, there's -some redeeming qualities.

-That's not how this works.

-It is intended -to separate the person -from the actual experience.

-Right?

From the, -the experience, -their lived experience, -who makes them who they are.

-It was chilling -when I was in the courtroom -trying -to get an order of protection -against Max Misch who -was one of one of several -individuals who made it their -life's work -for quite a period of time -to really -try and destroy my own life.

-Hearing them in the court and -talking about their justified -justification -for these actions, -about their hateful beliefs, -their antisemitism, -even though they are Jewish -themselves.

-The juxtaposition -of the, intense -intensity of the hatred -was a lot to deal with.

-It was a lot to deal with, -and no one needs -to hear their justification.

-That is a problem.

-And that's a challenge.

-And that's a challenge -that modern media has.

-Is it okay to talk with you -a little bit -about some of the fallout -from this experience?

-because I've seen you -step down from office -your entire career.

-You moved.

Yes.

-Uprooted your life?

Yes.

-Uprooted -your family's life?

Yes.

-To the next town over.

Yes.

-Right to Brattleboro, which -is so close to Bennington.

-I have -questions for you about -why you didn't -just leave the state.

-Why do you stay?

-And this was hard.

-It's still hard to this day.

-My family questions why -!I live in Vermont to this day.

-They are perplexed -as to why I choose -to have Vermont be my home.

-I am one of several -racial refugees -within this state -who had to leave -for their own safety, -for their own well-being, -to move somewhere else -where they knew -they were not protected, -where they came from, -and now needed to find -a new place to become, -to become their home.

-I had raised my son in -Bennington.

-I had invested deeply -into the community -in a multitude of ways.

-I was very active -in that area -!before I even got into office.

-And all of that, -the friends that were made, -my child's best friends -since infancy.

-Suddenly they were - cousins, -Suddenly that was going -to have to be torn apart -and separated -by space and time, -because it was no longer safe -to remain there.

-There were days that I didn't -know, who I would run into.

-And even now, -as I return down to that area -to visit family or friends, -I'm extremely cautious.

-I am always watchful.

-I am still -unsettled.

-Is there any place where you -!actually have peace from this?

-there tends to be -a greater sense of safety -when you're around -your people.

-If you're able to -be in diverse communities -!that are meaningfully diverse.

-if you're able to again, -reaffirm the importance -of who you are -!by seeing yourself represented -in all sectors of life, -you can find your foods, hear -your music, -the things that say you exist -and you're important.

-Those are what gives you -the strength -to be able to move on.

-And as communities -and throughout history, -we can look at what happened -post-Civil War -and reconstruction -and all of these spaces -!where blacks, indigenous folks -who were on the margins -created their own communities -!and there was safety in there.

-There was a space -to be away from the hatred.

-And all of that was -destroyed very intentionally.

-!So leaving everyone to wonder, -where is a good place to be?

-So if the question is, -!as a racial refugee where I am -right now, do I feel safe?

-I will say on some levels -I feel safer, -but that is -because of the hard work -that others are doing -behind the scenes to help -keep me safe.

-!Monitoring my internet so that -I do not have to absorb it.

-Ensuring that there's someone -there that's a de-escalate, -or for just about every event -that I do, -thinking about these things -differently -and finding a way forward -so that as we're -taking the slings and arrows -and the microaggressions -that turn into actions, -that there's -somebody else watching -and there's someone else -caring, -Once people watch this film -what is your hope that -they take away from it?

-I hope they -recognize how pervasive -this is.

-When we screened this film -at the statehouse here -in Vermont, the first showing -in the United States in 2022.

-Yes, indeed, -the number of women -legislators who came forth -and talked about the hundreds -of harassing emails -!and messages that they receive -on a daily basis, -the fact that folks -are still almost in some ways -afraid to talk -about the levels of threat -that they receive.

-No one wants to make it real.

-You don't want to have to sit -and think about that.

-!You don't want to have to feel -fearful -for your life -and for your family.

-We've seen this happen.

-I hope that others -will get involved.

-It is my hope that others -will not stand for this -and that they will hold -the communities, -will hold them accountable, -will hold those actors -accountable.

-It's going to have to come -from the communities, -because the entities -themselves are incapable -of doing so, -and the person who is harmed -should -not have to do that work.

-It is my hope that people -see that it has real effects.

-It's not just rhetoric, -it's reality.

-thank you, Kiah, so much -for being here with us today.

-You can hear more from Kiah -on my podcast, homegoings.

-I think our last episode -talked about beauty -but still ended up here -in some ways, right?

-It's all very much related -and you can watch the film -Backlash: misogyny -in the Digital Age -as part of Vermont Public's -Made Here -series online at -vermontpublic.org -Thank you, Kiah.

-Thank you, Myra.

-Vermont Public, partnering -!with local filmmakers to bring -you stories made here.

-For more, visit -Vermontpublic.org.