AARON TANG: Today, we will elect the next president of the United States.

GABRIEL STERLING: There are people out there that are under the impression that there are shenanigans going on.

JEH JOHNSON: They voted for me.

I won the count.

TANG: You and Secretary Fontes belong to different parties.

Does that make it hard at all today to work together?

It used to be that the other guy had a bad idea.

Now the other guy is a bad guy.

I know what, that the headline is all that matters.

KATIE HARBATH: We are not misleading voters.

Parts of it are true.

TANG: 300 armed protesters are chanting "Fight the fraud!"

ADRIAN FONTES: We cannot shirk away from the defense of the first amendment rights of our voters.

You have to fight-- you have to be in the game, and you have to fight with the rules as they are.

I'm not about to hold that back for the sake of one result or the other.

I'm not trying to overturn democracy.

And now you want her to make a decision based on the algorithm that deprives me of my constitutional rights.

That, that bothers me a little bit.

If we're going to save this country, then we've got to deal with the intimacy of our hatreds.

FONTES: This guy and I agree on almost nothing when it comes to elections, and yet we can do that without making judgments about one another.

Then let's do it.

♪ ♪ I am Sonia Sotomayor.

I was born and raised in the Bronx.

I'm Amy Coney Barrett, born and raised in New Orleans.

The two of us come from very different backgrounds.

But we serve together as justices on the Supreme Court of the United States.

Growing up, Justice Barrett and I were also both taught to share a deep belief in the importance of community.

My mother was a nurse and a "one-woman emergency room stop" for our housing project.

During my childhood, we opened our garage up for use as a voting precinct.

On Election Day, people would line up on our street to vote.

My family also fostered a child and cared for elderly neighbors.

Both of our parents were inspirations.

They knew what mattered: caring for our neighbors in action, not just in words.

Our shared belief in community is fundamental.

As is our concern of losing public trust in our institutions.

So how do we navigate our differences?

How do we rebuild faith in our institutions, to really see each other and find common ground as a society?

It starts with something surprisingly simple: we have to engage with people outside our usual circles.

In the program, you will meet a panel of 12 people who come from different circles, a wide ideological range.

Moderated by law professor Aaron Tang, together they will confront a hypothetical scenario that takes place during a presidential election.

Some will take on the role of everyday citizens, and some will take on roles that mirror what they do in their everyday lives.

Professor Tang will confront each of these decisionmakers with difficult ethical decisions and high stakes.

Most importantly, it will encourage them to really listen to one another as they wrestle with their own values and with each other's beliefs.

We know we won't always change each other's minds but we also know that honest conversations are so important.

They might even help us find ways to compromise where we can.

What if this were the beginning of a campaign for compromise and kindness?

What if we could demand that kind of change and disagree kindly?

And disagree better!

And in the process even become friends.

And now to Professor Tang, who will take us to our hypothetical scenario.

Panelists, welcome.

Today is Election Day.

Today we will elect the next president of the United States.

We'll start our story in the state of Middlevania.

It's a big state, a battleground state.

Every poll shows a virtual tie between the incumbent president of the United States and the challenger.

Elise, you are a proud resident of Middlevania, Bigton County, the largest county, urban county here in the state.

And every election, you do your civic duty.

You serve as a poll worker.

It's 6:00 a.m. You've just had coffee with your brother, Eddie.

(chuckles) Eddie, inspired by her, you have, uh, this year, offered to pitch in at the polls.

You jump into Eddie's car when your phones ring, both of them, at the same time.

You look down.

It's a text message from your uncle.

Uncle Bill.

Now, both of you have fond memories from your childhood of Thanksgivings at Uncle Bill's.

But lately, things have changed.

You've seen your Uncle Bill's views diverge, completely, from your own, especially when it comes to the legitimacy of the last election.

GLAUDE: I've always known that he held certain kinds of positions, and I was okay with it.

But now I think it's a reflection of his character.

Maybe Uncle isn't such a good dude anymore.

Yeah.

TANG: Well, you grit your teeth, and you open the text message and you read it.

And it turns out that Uncle Bill is just asking you for a ride.

Ah!

(laughter) TANG: That's all.

He's asking you for a ride because he's going to the same polling place that the two of you are going to today.

He's very excited about his role.

Uncle Bill is a poll watcher.

You two are poll workers.

TANG: Uncle Bill is a poll watcher.

What is the difference between a poll watcher and a poll worker?

We have, uh, very luckily, two high-ranking officials in Middlevania's, uh, elections, uh, who can help us know the difference.

Secretary of State Fontes.

Mr. Fontes, you are, in fact, the secretary of state here in Middlevania.

The best state in the union, by the way.

(all laugh) TANG: Could you just help us understand, generally, what is the difference between a poll worker and a poll watcher?

Well, basically, poll workers are the folks, regular, average citizens, who set up the polling place ahead of time and help voters not only check in, get their ballots, help work them through the process.

Poll watchers, on the other hand, uh, are those folks who are, generally speaking, appointed by their political parties.

And they can, uh, do certain things within the law, uh, to observe, as we want to make sure that the, uh, integrity and uprightness of our election systems are preserved.

TANG: Okay.

So, poll workers: not partisan, nuts and bolts of administering the election.

Poll watchers: affiliated with candidates, campaigns, there to observe what's best for their candidate.

Exactly.

TANG: Uh, Mr. Sterling, Gabriel Sterling.

You are the chief operations officer of the Middlevania secretary of state's office.

A wonderful role.

And you know that the challenger's party-- the party that controls the Middlevania state legislature-- has recently passed a new law.

Could you tell our viewers and one another what access Uncle Bill is going to have under this new law?

It allows him to get close to what we would consider intervening with the voter in their process of voting, which is what you really don't want to see.

But there are people out there who want to allow for greater access because they're under the impression that there are shenanigans going on.

TANG: Mr. Kobach.

Would you agree with what Mr. Sterling said?

Well, sometimes it's, uh, an impression that's unfounded.

Uh, sometimes there really are shenanigans, and something illegal was done.

TANG: So, uh, to come back to you, Elise and Eddie.

You know that your uncle Bill is a poll watcher for the challenger this election.

How does it make you feel-- this idea of driving him to the polls?

JORDAN: Oh, let's just give the guy a ride.

He's crazy but, you know.

- Oh, no, no.

GLAUDE: Mm-mmm.

After the way he behaved last Thanksgiving, there's nothing about the experience I had with Uncle Bill and there's nothing about the positions that he's put forward to lead me to believe that his role as a poll watcher is rooted in a commitment to democracy as such.

Mm.

So, you send him the text message, a little white lie?

No, I wouldn't lie to him.

TANG: What would you write?

I'm not picking you up.

TANG: Wow.

(laughter) - Because the turkey was dry.

Because of his stuffing or because of...

Exactly.

TANG: Okay.

(laughter continues) TANG: It's now 7:30 a.m., and we are in a newsroom.

Major broadcast newsroom.

Scott Pelley, you are the lead anchor and managing editor for EBS, nation's premier news broadcast.

And it's a busy day.

Have you had coffee as well?

- Lots.

(laughter) By 6:00 a.m., lots, yes.

And we're at 7:30, so you're... you're a little jittery.

Okay, so, you get a quote from the challenger's campaign.

"We are extremely confident "that our candidate will win today.

"In fact, the only possible way he loses "is if the election is stolen from him.

So, we will be vigilant all day to stop that threat."

Do you report that quote?

PELLEY: I run that quote.

TANG: And that's it?

Just like that?

Well, I wouldn't say "that's it."

I would have an army of reporters working on these things.

TANG: Okay.

So, you have reporters out in the field working on it.

PELLEY: Absolutely.

Astead Herndon.

Mr. Herndon, you are the lead political reporter for the nation's largest newspaper.

Let's call it the "Gotham Tribune."

(panelists chuckle) Do you agree with the way Mr. Pelley is handling this quote?

I would want to say that the campaign is setting up a litmus test to say, "If we don't win, it's fraud."

And so I think there's ways to do that responsibly, with context and the like.

TANG: Okay, so you offer some context.

Rachel Bitecofer, you are a senior advisor to the incumbent president of the United States.

High-ranking member of his campaign team.

Is the campaign happy with how the challenger's quote has been covered?

BITECOFER: No.

Um, I know that the headline is all that matters, that most Americans don't read news, and my, um, opposition has just set up a "heads I win, tails I win" scenario where the only way that they can lose is by fraud.

It is an intentional piece of propaganda meant to manipulate the mind.

TANG: Mr. Mulvaney.

- Really, what am I in this circumstance?

(chuckling) TANG: You're you.

- Let, let me guess.

That's... - You're Mick Mulvaney!

TANG: You're you for now.

But I noticed, as Ms. Bitecofer was speaking, - Yeah.

TANG: ...a certain look on your face.

And so, I'm curious-- do you think that Ms. Bitecofer's gripes are legitimate?

What, what's the harm in handling it the exact way the two gentlemen from the press said?

You would put it in context.

It's the responsible way to do it.

I don't think those statements, political statements, especially before the election, are particularly dangerous.

TANG: Okay.

Okay.

It's now noon.

We're back in Middlevania, Bigton County, at the polling place where Elise and Eddie are working.

Uncle Bill is there, watching.

And, Elise, good news: it's time for your break.

You grab a seat, when you notice Uncle Bill is there too.

What do you say to him?

- Uncle Bill, what news are you reading?

(loud thump) He slams on the table before you can get another word out.

And he... - Whoo!

TANG: His finger...

Yes.

His hand is shaking and he's holding a cell phone.

He says, "Look, Elise, I knew it!

They're stealing this election."

And he presses play.

And you see an election worker put a pen in the hand of an elderly voter and guide her hand over the bubble for the incumbent president of the United States.

And right at that moment, the scene cuts out.

And you see a post-- says, "They know cheating is the only way they'll win.

Americans, fight this fraud."

What's going through your mind, Elise, as you watch the video?

I would say, "Uncle Bill, where's that from?

"You know, sometimes you get your news "from places that are a little questionable.

Let me check it out for you."

TANG: He's happy to hand you the phone, and you can see it's a video on social media.

And this time, when you watch it, two things stand out.

The first thing is that you're not actually sure anything unlawful happened.

You know that poll workers are allowed-- in fact, have a duty-- to help elderly voters, voters with disabilities, to read and fill out the ballot, if needed.

The second thing you notice, Elise-- that video was taken here, at the very elementary school where you're sitting.

Uncle Bill is trying to repost this video of the poll worker helping the elderly voter.

And he's added some text: "True patriots, this is where the fraud is happening.

Come fight the fraud."

Name of the elementary school and the address.

- Mm.

TANG: What do you do now?

Uncle Bill, you got to get a grip.

This is dangerous.

There are a lot of children here.

I know that emotions are running high, but we need to figure out what actually happened before we jump to conclusions and we get people upset and we raise the temperature when there's already enough acrimony going around.

I always humor Uncle Bill a little bit more than my brother.

You see Eddie walk by.

Do you call him in?

I think the good cop attitude isn't really working.

So I do say, "Eddie, hey, come over here.

It's time for you to sit down with Uncle Bill."

- Oh, hell no.

(laughter) This is what you always do.

This is what you did at Thanksgiving.

This is what you always do.

And if you press send, I'm gonna alert the relevant authorities of what you're trying to do.

- But, Eddie-- 'Cause you're gonna put everybody in here in danger.

JOHNSON: Why don't you just take away his device?

Well... 'Cause Uncle Bill has big hands.

(laughter) TANG: Let's talk about that.

Eddie is talking to you.

Uncle Bill can overhear it.

It's pretty clear Eddie is not going to persuade Uncle Bill.

And Uncle Bill is this close to trying to post it when you notice his face start to get red.

He's grumbling.

(grunts) "Look, quick... (stammers) Don't know how."

He's asking you, "Eddie, will you help me?"

Sure.

- There you go.

Did you, did you delete it?

I sure did.

(laughter) JOHNSON: Darn.

TANG: You know some people would say that what Uncle Bill is doing is telling his fellow Americans... ...about a possible problem with their democracy.

Mr. Sterling, do you think that what Uncle Bill is doing is so wrong?

STERLING: He should have had training to say, "If you see something, call the lawyers at the office."

That's what poll watchers are supposed to do.

TANG: But here's what happens.

Uncle Bill gets his phone back.

He can tell the message has been deleted.

Types it out again.

And this time he figures out to hit send.

The name of the school where this video of our poll worker helping our elderly voter is now out there, and so is the address.

It's now 12:30.

A new version of the video is now out with what the poster says is enhanced audio.

What it sounds like is the poll worker telling the elderly voter that she has to vote for the incumbent.

In just the time I've described it, that video is now up to 500,000 views.

Jeh Johnson.

JOHNSON: Yes.

You are the incumbent president of the United States.

- Ooh.

Okay.

All right.

(laughter) - Congratulations.

- Congratulations.

Okay.

(applause) TANG: Should you make a public statement?

Should you call the social media platforms and find out what they know about this video?

Ask them some questions?

JOHNSON: Well, at this point, the horse is out of the barn.

And, of course, someone can and should call social media platforms to say... um... "Please be responsible with what is being distributed right now."

TANG: Sitting in her beautiful Silicon Valley office with a chai mocha oat milk latte.

- That is not me.

-(laughs) Did I get that wrong?

It is black coffee with some cream.

TANG: Black coffee, I apologize.

- We are simple here.

I'm a good Midwest girl... TANG: Sitting... (laughs) in your Silicon Valley office with your coffee, is Katie Harbath.

Katie, you are the head of trust and safety at Lookquick, the nation's premier social media company.

Your job is to monitor disinformation that may be circulating on your platform.

So you're aware of this video.

It's now 1:00.

700,000 views.

What are you doing about it?

So there's a couple of steps we will have probably already-- we will have already taken even before we get a phone call from anybody.

We have folks from our operations teams, our policy teams, product teams, who are monitoring the platform for this type of content.

TANG: And, in fact, you have a phone call.

Yes.

TANG: And maybe you should talk to Ms. Bitecofer about this.

HARBATH: Hi.

- Sure.

Yeah, hi.

Hi, I wonder if you've seen this AI-enhanced video, um, where people are manipulating a poll-- it looks like a poll worker's manipulating a voter to vote for the incumbent party.

And given the way that information was spread, we're deeply concerned that this is gonna cause election violence.

HARBATH: Yeah, thanks for flagging it for us.

So we've already flagged it for fact checkers.

They're currently looking into it and then we also have our product teams currently running it through our tools to determine if it's AI.

We haven't been able to have a conclusive answer on that yet, to put a label on it.

Well, do you wait until the shooter is done shooting up a church to snap the Facebook Live off?

HARBATH: No, in fact, we've actually reduced the reach so that less people are seeing it in their feed.

While we're waiting for the fact checkers in order to determine whether this is true or not; we're also reaching out to the secretary of state's office and local law enforcement to see if we can get confirmation about what might be happening.

TANG: Ms. Harbath, you mentioned your tools that you have, your AI tools, for detecting whether videos have been manipulated.

AI says it's very likely that the enhanced audio is fake.

But the video itself is real.

HARBATH: We have to be careful because we have two things happening here at once in the same piece of content.

We have real video and fake audio.

A fact checker will mark it as false or partially false, and then we would able to put a label on it saying it's been marked as partially false, so that way we are not trampling on... A) the speech of the person who posted it.

We are not misleading voters about the fact that that parts of it are true, even though parts of it are false.

So we're trying to do our best to give them context while making sure less people see it so that it... less confusion.

Wow... wow.

I have to confess, I expected that a finding very likely that the audio is fake would lead social media companies to say, "We got to pull this."

Secretary Fontes, you look deeply skeptical.

Well, the concern that I have is that folks who would purposefully and maliciously attack the integrity of our election systems with this sort of misinformation and disinformation, somehow those First Amendment rights outweigh the rights of regular voters to peaceably assemble in their voting places, to be able to stand in line at what is a mandated place and a mandated time to ensure that they can have their rights to vote upheld.

And so the First Amendment right to peaceably assemble here seems to be falling victim to the First Amendment right of someone who would do our democracy harm.

And here's what I would ask about that, which is, let's say I posted it, okay, and let's say it's real.

Let's say it's all real.

Now her algorithm picks up and says it's fake.

Okay, she said she wasn't entirely sure, but she says it's more likely fake than not.

But let's say it's not, and now you want her to make a decision based on the algorithm that deprives me of my constitutional rights.

That, that bothers me a little bit.

No, you don't, you don't have a constitutional right as it pertains to that social media company.

- That's right.

FONTES: That social media company is not the government.

- Right.

FONTES: That social media company is privately owned.

- Correct.

FONTES: And they can do whatever they want with the information that you voluntarily put on there.

And in this day and age in Middlevania, we cannot shirk away from the defense of the First Amendment rights of our voters to peaceably assemble.

TANG: Thank you, Secretary Fontes.

(applause) Hold, hold on one second, Mr. Mulvaney, I want to ask Mr. Kobach.

Do you think there's a problem at step one that the campaign even called Ms. Harbath's office to begin with?

Yeah, and this issue reached the U.S. Supreme Court recently, there is a problem.

If the government is the actor, then and only then does the First Amendment become implicated, and so at that point, if the government or the president of the United States, the sitting president, is exerting some pressure and the, uh, private entity complies with the government's request, then the First Amendment is implicated.

TANG: So here's what happens: Lookquick downgrades this video, but it's still spreading like wildfire.

Yes.

TANG: People are watching it.

Now over a million views.

It's 1:15 p.m., and we are in the campaign headquarters for the challenger.

- That's me.

TANG: And, Mr. Mulvaney... -I figured as much.

TANG: ...you are not the challenger.

-Ah!

You are a close friend and trusted advisor, confidant.

- Yeah.

TANG: And so you and he are very aware of this video with the enhanced audio.

And you see him typing on his phone.

And he hands you the phone.

He's like, "It's a good idea, right?

That's gold.

I should send that."

And it says, "My people, you know what to do.

Come forward and fight the fraud."

It's a version of the video with the name of the school and the address.

And now the challenger candidate wants to repost it.

What do you tell him?

If the concern is about violence at that site, edit out the address.

leave the audio, leave the video and get rid of the address.

Don't repost anything that has the address in it.

TANG: The challenger candidate is not happy, but he does listen.

He puts the phone away.

He doesn't repost the name of the school or the address, but four other social media influencers do.

But let me accuse you of indulging in a luxury.

There's only one of these?

Yeah, that's the... - Yeah.

TANG: In point of fact, there are other videos... - Like, 10,000?

- I would expect, yeah.

TANG: This is the one that's out there the most, but yes, it is... an example.

That's the problem that we're gonna face on election day.

TANG: Okay, Eddie, your job is to stand outside at the polls because polling time closes in 30 minutes.

Somebody needs to stand there and tell folks that if they get in the line before 7:00, they're good, they can vote, they're still okay.

But if they get in the line after 7:00, they're out of luck, can't vote.

It's now 6:45, and you see a group of people, a crowd, down the street heading this way.

You can hear them chanting.

They're chanting, "Fight the fraud!"

They get a little closer, your stomach drops.

They're carrying guns.

Not pointing them, but holding them in an accessible and visible way.

They're staring you down.

300 people.

What's going through your mind as you watch this crowd?

I didn't sign up for this.

(laughter) - That's exactly right.

- Mm-hmm.

Right.

I didn't sign up for this.

- That's exactly right.

TANG: Mr. Sterling, Secretary Fontes, does it surprise you that something like this might happen in one of your polling places, an armed crowd?

STERLING: Surprise isn't the right word.

I mean, it is a worst-case scenario, obviously, and you don't want to put it in a situation where it's going to escalate.

And I'm assuming the sheriff's office would be in contact with us in the war room, as well.

TANG: I have a question, though.

You and Secretary Fontes, working together today, you belong to different parties.

One of you belongs to the challenger's party, and one of you belongs to the incumbent's party.

Does that make it hard at all today to work together?

No.

No.

TANG: Why not?

FONTES: Because we're election administrators, we're not politicians.

I may be an elected official, but I can separate my duty from my preference.

And while he may be a member of the other party, he's an American first, just like me.

STERLING: The law is the law.

You enforce the law.

(applause) You enforce the law without fear or favor, knowing that there's going to be problems, knowing there's going to be issues, and I would fight for the right of every single voter.

One of the things we say as election administrators, one of our ongoing jokes is we want high turnouts and wide margins 'cause that, that takes care of a lot of problems.

But that's not the reality we're dealing with.

Voters start to panic.

TANG: Many voters flee the line.

They duck into storefronts, they're hiding.

The tension, Eddie, is unbearable.

And at that very moment, another person who stayed in the line steps forward into the middle of the street.

They recognize this person.

It's you, Reverend Moore.

You are a local church leader in this community, and they're listening to you.

What do you say to them?

Put the guns away and go home.

You don't want to become the kind of person that an angry mob can turn you into becoming.

If they belong to my church, they're going to ultimately stand in judgment for their actions here today.

Don't get carried away with, uh... with the mob.

TANG: As you are preaching, the police form a barrier in the street between the protesters with guns and the line.

Voters start coming back out of the woodwork, out of the storefronts.

They're breathing a sigh of relief, and they stand in the line next to you.

You happen to look down at your watch, Eddie, and it's 7:04.

The polls have closed.

What do you say to these voters?

I be damned.

(laughter) Something is... I-I... As a poll worker, I'm not quite sure what my role is here.

You've got to make a call.

- Yeah.

TANG: And anybody who is in line at 7:00 can vote.

If they're not in line by 7:00, they can't.

Do you say any, anything to them?

I do know that there is a process in play.

Don't go home.

- Mm-hmm.

Uh, but I'm not sure whether or not you can or cannot vote.

TANG: Okay, Mr. Sterling, you want to help him out?

What we normally do, your poll manager knows this, they can vote a provisional ballot.

And this is one of the most important things that we teach election workers across the country.

When we hear the word "provisional ballot," most folks think that that's not a good thing.

But the fact of the matter is, in the United States of America, in Middlevania and everywhere else, when a person shows up to a polling place to vote, the poll workers have got to let them cast a ballot.

And if it's provisional, and they aren't qualified, then it will not count, but if they are qualified, it will.

You tell them they can cast a provisional ballot.

Yeah.

- And they're angry.

- Yeah.

You're telling me, Eddie, that those people, those jerks with guns, came, they scared us all off, threatened us, and now I have to cast a second-class ballot-- I don't even know if it's gonna count-- because of them?

Is that what you're telling me?

- Yes.

I understand your anger.

I'm angry.

We know that these... there are forces out here that are trying to undermine our democracy.

And you know what?

We have to do everything we can in our power to prevent them.

And that involves, in this instance, a provisional vote.

So, vote.

TANG: Eddie, as you are having this very difficult conversation with a voter, an election worker comes running out from the elementary school and says, "The judge just approved an extension in all of Bigton County."

Not just this one elementary school, the whole county.

One extra hour, everybody can get in line and vote.

Yeah.

Election day ends.

Here's what we know so far.

The electoral vote count is 240 electoral votes for the challenger candidate and 240 votes for you, Mr. President.

Four states are still too close to call-- Middlevania and three other battleground states.

We hear reports, rumors, that in some states, county election boards are talking about refusing to certify the vote totals in their counties.

Secretary Fontes, could you tell us what happens when election officials refuse to certify?

FONTES: Certification, uh, is a ministerial process by the county election board, and it is their job to certify the tabulation.

And so, we are cautiously admonishing all those folks to make sure that they do their duty.

TANG: So it sounds like the duty to certify election results is a ministerial task.

No discretion.

County election officials just have to do it.

But I want to ask Mr. Sterling, if it's a ministerial task, something that election boards just have to do, what about challenges to certain votes?

How are those challenges heard?

STERLING: So there's all kinds of procedures, and they're designed to cast votes.

They're not designed to stop votes from being cast.

TANG: All of the procedures for counting before certification have happened.

And here's the vote total.

Not certified yet, but the vote total in Middlevania-- the president has 3,000 more votes than the challenger.

It's a razor-thin margin.

The incumbent is winning.

But none of those votes have yet been officially certified.

The majority leader of the Middlevania state legislature issues a public statement.

He's a member of the challenger's party.

The challenger's party controls the state legislature.

And he reminds us that there is something different about Middlevania.

The state legislature gave itself the final authority to decide which county's votes should be certified.

Just to make clear, the individual county canvassing boards are no longer the authority that certifies election totals.

It is the state legislature itself that will decide what totals are certified in all of the counties.

There are too many unanswered questions about the vote in Bigton County.

Questions about fraud.

You all saw the video.

Questions about the extension of the vote in the entire county by an hour when just the one precinct was affected by the protests.

We're going to hold an inquiry before we certify Bigton.

And you can do the math.

This inquiry, this certification, could change the result of who wins this state.

Mr. Herndon, Americans are wondering what the heck is going on in Middlevania.

What headline would you write to describe what's happening in Middlevania?

Um, "Why the State's New Election Law Might Flip the Result."

"Why the State's New Election Law Might Flip the Result."

Mr. Kobach, you are a member of the challenger's party.

You voted on this new election law.

Do you think Mr. Herndon's headline-- "New Election Law May Flip Result"-- is a fair one?

Uh, I don't think that headline is a fair one because the state legislature passed the law, and presumably, the governor signed the law 'cause the law had to get the governor's signature.

So, uh, this is what the people of, of the state have allowed, and the legislature shall conduct its inquiry and decide what the correct result is, based on allegations of whatever fraud.

Do you agree with that, Secretary Fontes?

I think the bit of history here is that this secretary would've fought tooth and nail, uh, as against that provision.

- Mm-hmm.

Because it is clearly intended, uh, to suppress the votes of some individual voters.

When we have a political b, body picking and choosing winners, as this Middlevania law says, that is the worst kind of, I would say, denigration of the popular will that we could see.

The clock is ticking.

The clock is ticking because, in two days, Middlevania has to decide if it's the challenger who's won the state and the challenger's electors go and vote, or if it's the incumbent's electors.

And as that clock is ticking, Scott Pelley is on your TVs with a breaking news report.

The other three battleground states have been called.

Two of them have gone for the challenger.

One of them, the largest state, has gone for the incumbent president.

Which means Middlevania is going to determine the next president of the United States.

The majority leader gives a speech.

I'm moving a bill that excludes the 10,000 votes that were cast everywhere in Bigton after 7:00, except for the elementary school where the protests happened.

We'll count those, but we cannot vote to certify Bigton's original tally.

With that new total, the true winner of Middlevania will be the challenger.

Mr. Kobach, Mr. Mulvaney, you have to vote.

It, it's not an easy vote, but it's not a hard decision.

There was a lawsuit about the extra hours, and the lawsuit was, I assume, properly litigated.

Went all the way up to the state supreme court, maybe the U.S. Supreme Court, and said, "No, no, that was fine, that, that, that was the rule."

The hour gets to stay.

That's really the end of the discussion.

But Kris, help me out, this is... there's, there's no... there's no real decision here, is there?

If the, uh, public announcement that was made to... you know, over the media, that everybody in the county gets an extra hour... To vote.

They get to vote.

TANG: It was.

Then the extra votes in the other polling places really can't be questioned.

TANG: But I have to ask, Mr. Kobach, you represent a very pro-challenger constituency.

They want the challenger to win.

What's gonna happen to you if you don't vote with the majority leader, if you don't vote with the challenger candidate, the leader of your party?

Well, then I'll have to face them, uh, at the polls.

You know, I... that would be something I'd be willing to face the electorate.

It'd be a hard decision, but it's not a difficult decision, if that makes any sense.

STERLING: To Mr. Mulvaney's point, it wasn't a difficult decision.

You do the right thing based on the law and based on the facts.

But we have to start normalizing doing the right thing.

'Cause I, I've had people come to me and says, "It's so courageous the stuff y'all did."

I'm like, "Telling the truth and following the law shouldn't be courageous."

TANG: Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Sterling.

(applause) Our Middlevania state legislators vote.

Mr. Mulvaney, Mr. Kobach vote against the majority leader's bill to certify a total without the extra 10,000 votes from Bigton county.

But... by a razor thin margin, the challenger's party and the state legislature has the votes to pass that count anyways.

The challenger has won Middlevania, and the challenger now has 270 electoral votes.

Mr. President, you have 268.

Mr. President, how do you feel about losing in this way?

JOHNSON: The overriding principle here, and the overriding way to look at this dilemma is who actually won the count in Middlevania among qualified voters in that state?

Who actually, who actually got the most votes?

They voted for me.

I won the count.

You should be the winner of Middlevania.

You should be the president-elect.

But what are you gonna do?

- I'm gonna follow the law.

That's what I'm gonna do.

If I have the right and the ability to bring a lawsuit to challenge what happened in Middlevania, to challenge what the... TANG: Okay.

...state legislature did.

TANG: Okay.

JOHNSON: I will do so.

TANG: Miss Bitecofer.

Clearly, the litigation is a viable option because the Supreme Court has already certified that those votes are legally cast ballots.

And, you know, that's, that's what, what you would do, is you would tell the public, "I disagree that the state legislature "should be able to override the will of the people, "but in the meantime, I'm just gonna keep my head down and do the work."

TANG: And you think the American people would understand?

It wouldn't break democracy even more to take the litigation route?

JOHNSON: I should ask the Supreme Court to hear this case.

TANG: Okay.

- Because, in fact, I won the count in this state.

I'm not trying to overturn democracy.

BITECOFER: Right.

- I'm trying to support... TANG: Okay.

- ...and defend democracy.

You file an emergency application in the Supreme Court of the United States, asking them to overturn Middlevania state legislature and reinstate the original tally.

And in two days, the Supreme Court issues a one-paragraph order rejecting your challenge, by a vote of five to four, The Middlevania state legislature's determination stands.

- Mm-hmm.

And with that, the race is over.

You're about to dial the phone number for the challenger when the phone rings in your hand.

Okay.

TANG: And you look down.

It's a person you have a history with, member of the challenger's party.

He says, "Mr. President, you and I, "we've had our fair share of fights over the years, "and I wanted my candidate to win, "but not like this.

"I am an elector in the electoral college, "appointed in the state of Middlevania "and pledged to the challenger, "but my state does not have a rule, a law, "binding me to vote "for the winner of the popular vote.

"I'm willing to vote for you in the electoral college, but..." - But.

Here's the "but."

Okay.

(laughter) TANG: "I can't do it by myself.

If it's just me, it's a 269 tie."

"So you need to find a second "faithless elector to join me.

"And there's one other thing.

"Please do not let this leak.

Mr. President..." (laughter) TANG: "I am willing..." - All of us are like... TANG: "...to do this with one other person "to save democracy.

"But if it gets out that I'm thinking about "doing it, and there's not another vote, "I'm not going to ruin my life for nothing.

I'll deny it.

I won't do it."

He hangs up the phone.

What should you do?

JOHNSON: Yeah.

I, personally, would not be comfortable with... ...directly trying to lobby an elector to change their vote.

I think my message would be... "Follow your conscience."

BITECOFER: I'm so glad my boss and I have been together for his... in the span of his career, because that answer is why I wanted to serve with him.

Because you can't fix this situation by doing something else that appears anti-democratic.

TANG: I have to ask Secretary Fontes, who is a trusted confidant and advisor, talk to them about this offer.

What should you do?

In order to protect and save democracy, we must practice democracy.

TANG: Hold on, hold on.

I want-- I...

I've got a guy here who put his life on the line in Middlevania to make sure his neighbors could vote.

And those neighbors, those neighbors voted for him to be the next president of the United States.

Eddie, do you think your president should be fighting harder?

Should accept, allow... ...faithless electors to make him the next president?

No.

No?

Because it would hasten the collapse... - Yes.

...of the polity.

That's the first thing, but he needs to fight.

He doesn't need to fight in a way that would compromise the very foundations of the republic, but he needs to fight.

The one thing that we face, by the challenger party and however we want to think about it, is that... they presume our commitment to democracy as a precondition for their undemocratic behavior.

It is the assumption that we're going to behave correctly that gives them the space to do all the things that they do.

TANG: So why not break that assumption?

Accept this act by a faithless elector of courage to make the right person the president?

Elise, what do you say?

JORDAN: I... this is why the other party tends to lose, because they aren't willing to play asymmetric warfare.

Would it be illegal, technically, for you to whip votes?

No, it's not illegal.

The rules of the game.

You're still playing by the rules of the game.

You're uphold, holding the law.

You're protecting a norm that no longer exists when the other candidate wants to completely shatter it.

So, you have to fight.

You have to be in the game, and you have to fight with the rules as they are.

GLAUDE: Okay... - And deal with it.

My sister might be convincing me, you know.

(laughter) Really?

GLAUDE: No, I'm not sure.

TANG: Mr. President... JORDAN: If you believe that the next... if you believe that the other party is willing also to further erode the norms, then why are you adhering to some old, antiquated standard and not playing full political battle?

Can I...?

TANG: Mister, Mr. President.

So, look, whether I serve or... whether I get to serve another four years or not, I still have to live with myself for the rest of my life.

My response would be, I am not comfortable asking some of your colleagues to change their votes.

You do... you follow your own conscience in Middlevania and... TANG: So you don't tell him not to do it.

JOHNSON: And if you feel comfortable asking others to follow your course, that's, that's on you, but I, I am not comfortable getting on the phone myself and asking electors, as me, the president of the United States, the most powerful man in this country, to change their votes.

What is legal and what is right can be two very different things.

The Middlevania legislature betrayed the faith of their own voters by choosing this path.

There's no reason in the world why two wrongs might make a right, even if they are legal.

GLAUDE: The moment we pursue democracy by way of undemocratic means... - Yes.

...we, we, we corrupt the end result and, more importantly, we might corrupt ourselves.

TANG: The clock is ticking because it's now December 15.

Our original faithless elector is sitting in an airport lounge.

Mr. Herndon, you are also in that airport lounge.

(laughter) - Oh, lucky break.

TANG: You recognize...

This isn't gonna be hard.

You recognize this Middlevania elector.

And you can hear him talking about a phone call he had with the president about his electoral vote.

But you can't hear the rest.

HERNDON: Mm-hmm.

- Would you... ...scoot a little bit closer?

Yes.

(laughter) Mr. Pelley, would you, too?

- Yes.

- Yes.

(laughter) TANG: And here's what you hear.

"Honey, I just got off the phone with the president.

"I told him I'm willing to cast my electoral vote for him "but only if he finds a second.

"Because if it's just me, not worth it, "and if it leaks, if it gets out that I'm considering it "before there are two votes, I won't do it.

That's what I said."

So, Mr. Herndon, what do you do?

I would absolutely report it was happening with... and not lose a wink of sleep.

You're telling me that you will write a story divulging that an elector is planning to do this, even though it might change the scope of history?

Yeah.

(laughter) Why wouldn't I?

Like, honestly, why wouldn't I?

I, like, I actually don't get why I wouldn't.

- So much more... - He likes Pulitzers a lot.

- Especially because... HERNDON: No, I mean, that's news.

Like, that's, that's our democracy.

Like, that's my role in this whole process.

Like, y'all got your little roles, I got mine.

(laughter) TANG: Wait a second, wait a second.

Mr. Pelley, do you have any reservations?

(Pelley inhales, clears throat) Conversation was held in a public place.

There's no expectation of privacy in my view.

So you would both run this story, even though, to be clear, even though it would mean that the person who won the national popular vote-- let's say it-- the person who won Middlevania, when all the votes that were lawful when cast, the president of the United States, would no longer have a chance to be the president... because of your reporting.

HERNDON: I'm not about to hold that back for the sake of one result or the other.

Fair enough.

Holding the story is a political act.

TANG: Is its own choice.

- And that's not something the "Tribune" or I are willing to do.

TANG: Fair enough.

And news changes history all the time.

TANG: Here's, here's what happens next.

The "Gotham Tribune" is about to run the story when our original Middlevania faithless elector and a colleague of his in Middlevania agrees to change his vote... ...for the president of the United States, and they go public.

They say, "We are going to vote for the incumbent."

Protests erupt around the country.

Supporters of the incumbent are still furious about what the Middlevania legislature did, disenfranchising voters in Bigton.

Supporters of the challenger are furious that faithless electors are going to flip the results of this election.

Elise, you see protesters streaming through the streets.

You hear gunshots.

Your daughter-- she's 17 years old-- comes and stands next to you.

And she says, "Mom...

I feel called.

Can I go out there?"

Of course I wouldn't be totally comfortable.

I would want her to be cognizant of the risk, but ultimately it would not be my position to stop her.

TANG: Uncle Bill has a son.

Will Jr. is a fanatic.

He grabs his rifle.

And he says, "Dad, "if I have to take one of them out today "to fight for our country and save democracy, I won't hesitate."

Reverend Moore, what would you say to him?

Put the rifle down.

Vigilante mob violence is not, uh, is not morally right.

Look, there's a difference between protesting and rioting.

- Yeah, yeah.

- And there's, unfortunately, there's people who don't understand the difference between those two things.

PELLEY: Don't riot.

Being part of a mob, that doesn't help.

GLAUDE: For me, if my son wanted to go and we didn't know what would happen and we were worried about him, but he said, "I have to go," what am I gonna say?

TANG: You might say, "Protest another day."

Yeah, I'd say, "Protest tomorrow.

Don't take, don't take a bullet."

GLAUDE: No, every, every protest carry with it the potential of what we're talking about.

With my son at that moment, what am I gonna do?

What am I modeling?

- Yes.

And what am I going to...?

In these moments you either cultivate the habits of courage or the habits of cowardliness.

(applause) TANG: Okay, folks, I have one last chapter of our story to unfold.

What would you say to all of us about what we can do differently... ...to protect American democracy?

PELLEY: We have to somehow step back from demonizing those we disagree with.

- Mm.

It used to be that the other guy had a bad idea.

Now the other guy is a bad guy.

- Mm.

And you can't compromise with that.

We have to find a way to speak with one another again, but first and foremost we have to break this trap that we find ourselves in of demonizing the other side.

JOHNSON: Be... learn to disagree without being disagreeable.

Respect each other's points of view, uh, as if their opinions matter just as much as yours.

This is the most durable, sustainable democracy so long as we participate and respect our neighbors when we do so.

HERNDON: But I, I think the stories we tell about our own democracy really matter.

I do think that a narrative of democracy that, um, this was a stable, working thing is not true.

I think this is like a narrative that has to become more complicated, that it was always a work in progress, that it was always exclusionary, that it was always bigoted, that it was always violent, and that's hard, and so I feel like, when that story is told to expand out what America has been, it will be easier for us to see each other as working through a difficult experiment like the people who came before us.

BITECOFER: Our founding fathers were not infallible.

They were quite brilliant to forge, basically, out of iron, an entire new system of government for a society that thought only God-appointed kings could make decisions.

They believed the people that we would vote and elect into positions of power would adhere to high ethical norms and standards.

KOBACH: Look, our, our founding fathers created a system where state legislatures can do extraordinary things to control the electoral... how the electors vote, but they also said that the system requires people to act with integrity.

All elected officials, all electors, and all voters should act with integrity.

MULVANEY: I...

There's a small change to that 'cause the system doesn't say, doesn't require that you act with integrity.

It's unwritten.

Correct, yeah.

FONTES: This guy and I agree on almost nothing when it comes to elections in real life, and yet in this hypothetical, which I think should serve as the example, we're willing to sit next to one another, participate, have the discussion and have the conversation.

This is what America should look like.

Maybe more this than that, but, you know, it is... (laughter) It is...

This is, this is, this is what it's supposed to be about, and, and while the, the, the art of governing is one thing, the art of campaigning ought to be seen as something we can compartmentalize.

That, that we're not going to take the viciousness of a campaign and those attacks that are seemingly inevitable... and, and use those characterizations when we have to sit around and make decisions with one another.

Right?

We can do that without making judgments about one another, and, and that's why actually walking in here, I was a little bit challenged.

Mr. Kobach and I have never actually met, but, uh, if this is the way we're going to start breaking the ice, then let's do it.

And on that note, we bid farewell to our election story and we bid farewell to Middlevania until the next time.

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